Hi

QuoteApparently MotD viewing figures were up 500K 

Actually they are putting that down to the 'car crash syndrome' (i.e. people like to watch a car crash).

Cheers Paul

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 13 March 2023, 02:38:49 AMI am not a fan of team sports so don't have an axe to grind. However, if football is"kick ball" wouldn't rugby be hand ball?

No, because the foot is used to kick the ball out of hand and for scoring goals.  The game of Rugby Football has evolved since the 1820s but the use of the foot is still important.  Hand ball is a completely different game.

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 13 March 2023, 02:36:50 AMThis was the BBC response to a complaint about Andrew Neil's impartiality

A strawman argument.  Nobody has claimed that the BBC isn't hypocritical.  The BBC is a crock in so many ways.  But, I do seem to remember that Clarkson got fired for things he said, or did, none of which, as I remember, were political in nature, just objectionable.  The thing about Lineker I object to is his allusion to Nazi Germany, which is ludicrous.     

Clarkson's contract wasn't renewed because he thumped a colleague because he, Clarkson, arrived too late where they were staying to get something to eat. Nothing to do with his odious views.

Hats off to Lineker for saying what he did.

Quote from: John Cook on 13 March 2023, 03:23:48 PMA strawman argument.  Nobody has claimed that the BBC isn't hypocritical.  The BBC is a crock in so many ways.  But, I do seem to remember that Clarkson got fired for things he said, or did, none of which, as I remember, were political in nature, just objectionable.  The thing about Lineker I object to is his allusion to Nazi Germany, which is ludicrous.     

I would suggest that "Nobody has claimed that the BBC isn't hypocritical" is much closer to a straw man argument. However, I suspect on that, as an so many issues, we will have to agree to differ.

Rather than Lineker, I think there is much more of a case  for sacking Fiona Bruce after her defence of Johnson family domestic violence on the grounds of it being a  "one off".

Ahem,  I think this has more than drifted into politics. Something which we are not supposed to do on this forum.    

A very wise man once said

Quote13 May 2022, 18:50:51#21
I don't mind some politics as long as we keep things civil!

Didn't somebody once say that everything is political?  Be that as it may, BBC hypocrisy generally isn't an argument I've made.  It was raised by somebody else way back in the thread.  I haven't got an opinion on Bruce and I'm not familiar with what she said.  As for Clarkson, it was indeed, inter alia, what he did, as I said.  Assaulting a colleague was the final straw.  But these are all strawmen arguments and have nothing to do with Lineker whose allusion to Nazi Germany was just as odious, as it was innacurate.  There is so much wrong with the BBC that I could waste the rest of the evening on it, but this was about Lineker, a subject on which I'm done.

Quote from: Orcs on 13 March 2023, 06:33:24 PMAhem,  I think this has more than drifted into politics. Something which we are not supposed to do on this forum.     

True
We can't risk this thread being closed because then the dead will walk the earth

Quote from: T13A on 13 March 2023, 09:32:54 AMHi

For what it's worth I think Leon's summary of the Gary Lineker situation above is, like Gary Lineker's original tweet, also 'spot on'.

Cheers Paul

And I think the absolute opposite.. Academic though as I haven't had a BBC poll tax certificate for over 23 years now.

Quote from: Gwydion on 13 March 2023, 02:52:21 AMHe would have been dull if he had. But he didn't make that analogy at all.

He said the language used was similar to that being used in Germany in the 1930s, not the treatment of Jews and Gypsies and the mentally ill and gay people and communists and Slavs etc etc.

His point of course being that careless acceptance of pejorative language about 'the other' has in the past led to actions that many (perhaps most?) of those endorsing that language by indifference would not have intended to flow from their failure to challenge it when it first arose.

I'm sorry but I'm afraid I can't let you get away with that.  The abuse, together with other measures, including violence, terror and intimidation, were part and parcel of the Nazi's treatment of the Jews that culminated in the so-called Nuremberg Laws, the goal of which was to make German Jews leave Germany.  The suggestion that the language used was somehow separate from the overall treatment of German Jews just doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny. 

Whatever you might think of the UK Government's policy on illegal immigration, it does not involve any language, or anything else, that even approximates to the treatment of German Jews by the Nazi government in the 1930s.

The careless use of language was Lineker's alone and was both inaccurate and offensive.

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a socialist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The "othering" of out groups is where it starts, the Nazi's may be an example of the extreme end to the process but they are far from the first, last or only example.

It's a bit late to speak out when the machetes are out or the gas chambers are in operation.

Well done Lineker.

    First they came for the brexiteers, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a brexiteer.
    Then they came for the anti-vaxxers, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not an anti-vaxxer.
    Then they came for the Christian, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not Christian.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The "othering" of out groups is where it starts, the Communists may be an example of the extreme end to the process but they are far from the first, last or only example.

It's a bit late to speak out when the machetes are out or the gulags are in operation.


I post this not as a political statement, but as a thought experiment. Is Lineker not guilty of "othering"? Was David Lammy not "othering" when he called Tories "Nazis"? I watched a BBC producer yesterday describing people who disagreed with Lineker as "right wing hyenas".

I sit neither on the left nor the right. I sit in the middle and am saddened by both sides. They are equally guilty of the same low politics that they accuse the other of.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" - Matthew 7:3
 

Whilst I like a good debate, political or otherwise, can we please get back on topic please gentlemen? As someone has already stated, we come here for wargames chat etc. Thankyou.

I thought this bit was about deaths not wargaming - 'Non-Wargaming Discussion'  

Re Lineker; 'othering' - no he made a humanitarian statement in favour of inclusivity not a political one.

Quote from: Gwydion on 15 March 2023, 09:27:53 AMI thought this bit was about deaths not wargaming - 'Non-Wargaming Discussion'

Re Lineker; 'othering' - no he made a humanitarian statement in favour of inclusivity not a political one.

I agree ... this is an inappropriate discussion for this thread - and probably for the Forum as a whole (IMHO)
Thanks
Mark

Quote from: Big Insect on 15 March 2023, 09:39:59 AMI agree ... this is an inappropriate discussion for this thread - and probably for the Forum as a whole (IMHO)
Thanks
Mark

No, it doesn't fit in this thread but whether we shouldn't discuss other stuff I'm not so sure.  We ought to be able to discuss current affairs somewhere if we want to.  Nobody has resorted to ad hominems on this one, we aren't politicians after all, and this forum is not TMP.  We are better than that, are we not? 

I think that is a fair summation of what I feel as well John. Thank you for stating it so succinctly.

How about discussing current affairs on a current affairs forum.

If one goes on Twitter one can take up the issue with Lineker Invictus himself. Or even, should they so wish, send abusive comments to his family