Quote from: Gwydion on 13 March 2023, 02:52:21 AMHe would have been dull if he had. But he didn't make that analogy at all.

He said the language used was similar to that being used in Germany in the 1930s, not the treatment of Jews and Gypsies and the mentally ill and gay people and communists and Slavs etc etc.

His point of course being that careless acceptance of pejorative language about 'the other' has in the past led to actions that many (perhaps most?) of those endorsing that language by indifference would not have intended to flow from their failure to challenge it when it first arose.

I'm sorry but I'm afraid I can't let you get away with that.  The abuse, together with other measures, including violence, terror and intimidation, were part and parcel of the Nazi's treatment of the Jews that culminated in the so-called Nuremberg Laws, the goal of which was to make German Jews leave Germany.  The suggestion that the language used was somehow separate from the overall treatment of German Jews just doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny. 

Whatever you might think of the UK Government's policy on illegal immigration, it does not involve any language, or anything else, that even approximates to the treatment of German Jews by the Nazi government in the 1930s.

The careless use of language was Lineker's alone and was both inaccurate and offensive.

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a socialist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a trade unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The "othering" of out groups is where it starts, the Nazi's may be an example of the extreme end to the process but they are far from the first, last or only example.

It's a bit late to speak out when the machetes are out or the gas chambers are in operation.

Well done Lineker.

    First they came for the brexiteers, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not a brexiteer.
    Then they came for the anti-vaxxers, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not an anti-vaxxer.
    Then they came for the Christian, and I did not speak out—
         Because I was not Christian.
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The "othering" of out groups is where it starts, the Communists may be an example of the extreme end to the process but they are far from the first, last or only example.

It's a bit late to speak out when the machetes are out or the gulags are in operation.


I post this not as a political statement, but as a thought experiment. Is Lineker not guilty of "othering"? Was David Lammy not "othering" when he called Tories "Nazis"? I watched a BBC producer yesterday describing people who disagreed with Lineker as "right wing hyenas".

I sit neither on the left nor the right. I sit in the middle and am saddened by both sides. They are equally guilty of the same low politics that they accuse the other of.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" - Matthew 7:3
 

Whilst I like a good debate, political or otherwise, can we please get back on topic please gentlemen? As someone has already stated, we come here for wargames chat etc. Thankyou.

I thought this bit was about deaths not wargaming - 'Non-Wargaming Discussion'  

Re Lineker; 'othering' - no he made a humanitarian statement in favour of inclusivity not a political one.

Quote from: Gwydion on 15 March 2023, 09:27:53 AMI thought this bit was about deaths not wargaming - 'Non-Wargaming Discussion'

Re Lineker; 'othering' - no he made a humanitarian statement in favour of inclusivity not a political one.

I agree ... this is an inappropriate discussion for this thread - and probably for the Forum as a whole (IMHO)
Thanks
Mark

Quote from: Big Insect on 15 March 2023, 09:39:59 AMI agree ... this is an inappropriate discussion for this thread - and probably for the Forum as a whole (IMHO)
Thanks
Mark

No, it doesn't fit in this thread but whether we shouldn't discuss other stuff I'm not so sure.  We ought to be able to discuss current affairs somewhere if we want to.  Nobody has resorted to ad hominems on this one, we aren't politicians after all, and this forum is not TMP.  We are better than that, are we not? 

I think that is a fair summation of what I feel as well John. Thank you for stating it so succinctly.

How about discussing current affairs on a current affairs forum.

If one goes on Twitter one can take up the issue with Lineker Invictus himself. Or even, should they so wish, send abusive comments to his family

QuoteHow about discussing current affairs on a current affairs forum.

One would probably end up communicating  with a wider demographic which I would argue is a good thing.

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 15 March 2023, 10:31:46 AMHow about discussing current affairs on a current affairs forum.

It's a fair point.  On the other hand there are opportunties on this forum to discuss topics outside wargaming, so why not current affairs too?  It is not something we need to shy-away from I think.   

I've split this discussion away from the Deaths thread. 

I don't mind talking about things like this as long as we keep it civil.  The wider issue for all of us, that's been highlighted by the Lineker row, is the increased influence that governments are trying to exert over all media channels, combined with this strange post-truth world we're starting to inhabit, all in an attempt to muddy the waters and make sure that the electorate can't distinguish truth from fiction. It's always happened to an extent but the age of the internet and instant distribution of information has ramped it up.

Here in the UK we're following the USA's lead in this, taking inspiration from channels like Fox News and launching our own versions in GB News and Talk TV.  We've now got politicians presenting essentially political broadcasts on these channels in direct violation of Ofcom rules.  Combine that with social media where anything goes and it's not great. 

Whichever side of the political fence you sit on, we all need to look at things from different perspectives to see whether it's really an issue or simply a distraction from the real problems we're facing.

QuoteI'm sorry but I'm afraid I can't let you get away with that.  The abuse, together with other measures, including violence, terror and intimidation, were part and parcel of the Nazi's treatment of the Jews that culminated in the so-called Nuremberg Laws, the goal of which was to make German Jews leave Germany.  The suggestion that the language used was somehow separate from the overall treatment of German Jews just doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny. 

Whatever you might think of the UK Government's policy on illegal immigration, it does not involve any language, or anything else, that even approximates to the treatment of German Jews by the Nazi government in the 1930s.

The careless use of language was Lineker's alone and was both inaccurate and offensive.

Nothing to get away with. Lineker was remarkably precise in his use of language, as was I.
As I said: he never equated the actions of the Government to

Quotethe treatment of German Jews by the Nazi government in the 1930s

He equated the rhetoric used by some about the current situation to the language used (Lineker never mentioned Nazis by the way) in 1930s Germany [and other parts of Europe as well - my interpolation].

I never for one second suggested 1930s language was separate from the treatment of Jews and others. I clearly stated that the language created the environment where such actions could be carried out, and that is why I feel Lineker was right to speak out. Better to stop it at the language stage before we end up doing things we will (or should) regret.

He was unclear whether he was criticising Government language or that of their more enthusiastic supporters. In either case I think he had a right to say it.

Quote from: Gwydion on 15 March 2023, 03:58:14 PMHe equated the rhetoric used by some about the current situation to the language used (Lineker never mentioned Nazis by the way) in 1930s Germany

So he meant ... ?

It's a bit like my previous quote being "from the book by those folk who like the bloke who was nailed to a cross".

Sorry, I'm teasing.