Overhead firing

V4 is the same as V2 in that:-
Page 35 "All vehicles and guns may fire over troops on foot, command units and dug in troops when the target is a vehicle. Mortars and infantry guns can fire indirectly over all units. All troops may fire over other units if either the unit firing or the target are on higher ground than any intervening troops. All other overhead firing is prohibited."

If a ATG Unit is masked by an Infantry unit (friend or foe) then an enemy tank opposite cannot trace a LOF to the ATG, but the ATG can trace a LOF to the tank (AFV).
What if the ATG was in a Bunker, would you allow the tank to fire at the bunker over the intervening infantry?

I don't tend to allow more than one unit into a building and normally treat as single story, as sometimes we have "they're firing from upstairs." Obviously bigger buildings this may be permissable as higher ground is not defined.

Do players allow SP Artillery such as Wespe fire indirectly, although in lists classed as Armour, but their off table equivalents can?

Thoughts?
:-

Thanks
Andy

Hi Andy

My take -

(1) LOS is fine between the ATG and the tank - as INF unit is low profile and does not block LOS

(2) As per BKCII ...Tank cannot fire over INF to gun (if INF visible) ....but gun can fire over INF to Tank.

(3) What about if gun in a bunker? Unless you rule the bunker is higher ground than INF ...then Tank still cannot fire overhead. Field Defences rule re bunkers on p11 only refers to treating them a HAT for movement purposes .....so guess that its all just done to part of the normal pre-game checklist - where confirming relative heights of terrain features takes place. Perhaps a house rule that states than >Xmm calibre deployed guns are deemed average profile (as per any non-deployed gun profile) would help resolve.

(4) SP Artillery should be in the Artillery list if used On-table I believe. Artillery Support rules (p47) indicate that such artillery would still fire as Infantry Guns rules (per p45)...which allow for indirect firing as well as direct firing.
My guess is the Wespe is listed in the wrong place in the Armour list ...and should be in the Artillery List (as well as Off-table Support list) not as an AFV ..but as a ART:IG, with Exposed, Restricted Arc and Tracked abilities. However - I stand to be corrected!

Finally - Funny that the Wespe (and other units) listed as Off-table Support should have the Tracked ability listed.....I wonder why / what difference it makes ??

Hope this helps
Adam

Thanks. Tracked ability - I suppose they don't have to stop at linear obstacles anymore!

LOL

I mean if its Off-Table....movement irrelevant ...so why list an ability that only refers to movement?
Another oversight im sure

Adam

Yes, I suppose SP is all that is relevant for off table artillery for the FAO bonus.

Just noticed I've been promoted to Subaltern!

Quote from: Cross698 on 18 May 2019, 01:50:53 PM
Just noticed I've been promoted to Subaltern!

Congratulations! Well deserved promotion. Drinks on you in the Mess tonight

Have to go on the chitty 

NO CREDIT TO JUNIOR OFFICERS !!!!!

Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 18 May 2019, 01:18:03 PM
LOL

I mean if its Off-Table....movement irrelevant ...so why list an ability that only refers to movement?
Another oversight im sure

Adam

I seem to recall that it made a difference for counter battery fire.

Just checked, p49 counter battery fire hits towed guns on a 5-6 and self propelled on a 6. so while the tracked ability does not come into play, it does serve to show that the unit is self propelled for 'to hit' purposes.

Yes - exactly .....Tracked ability not required for anything off-table.

Being a Self-propelled unit does matter -
(1) Per p47 - Get a Command CV bonus when calling in all self-propelled ....defined as Artillery having a Move value in the army lists.
(2) Per p19 - harder to hit by Counter-battery Fire.

But - in the Wespe example used (where it would be useful to have an ability listed)...there is no mention of off-table Wespes having the Exposed Ability  ...whereas the on-table Wespe does (p131/132)

Another one that got through?
Adam

I believe mortars can't do counter battery fire, so the exposed ability would not come into play i think?

Exposed Ability gives the Attacker an additional 1d6 for mortars, artillery or air attacks.

See how useful to list this one rather than Tracked - lol

Yes true, forgot that one, didn't have the book with me when i replied!

Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 18 May 2019, 03:53:51 PM
(1) Per p47 - Get a Command CV bonus when calling in all self-propelled ....defined as Artillery having a Move value in the army lists.

It's always been in ever since v1. Pete Jones conceded it was just there to make SP different to towed. Plus is utter b*****ks

But you highlighted the other key thing SP is safer vs CB fire.

Just been sitting on sidelines watching you all working this one out ... well done ... I have limited time to respond to all queries.

On the Wespe specifically, no point in having it as Exposed off-table as the vast majority of off-table artillery is technically usually 'exposed'. In fact I struggle to think of an enclosed tracked artillery unit? Not in WW2 anyway. Although I am sure somebody will prove me wrong 

We could also then get into the issue about whether the off-table artillery is dug-in or holed up in a BAU or in a wood etc.etc.etc.

Mortars are mostly classified as on-table units - there are exceptions of course but even the big tracked soviet 'mortars' are not really mortars - more like howitzers. So you don't get mortar counter-battery off-table (again this is to keep the game simple to play).

The Tracked ability is a good one as it covers a couple of points around mobility and also the fact that tracked artillery is generally more ready to fire than a gun that is towed and needs to be deployed.

Cheers
Mark

Thanks Mark

I think I understand -
(a) Pointless showing off table anything as having Tracked ability
(b) Wespe (as an example) should have Exposed ability in both on and off table ....as no difference in attacking these vulnerable units...however - given that Counter-Battery rules are straight from BKCII (where only hit SP guns on a 6) ...
it seems counter-intuative for them to be both hard to hit (a 6 needed) ...but also Exposed (Attacker +1 die) ....so the ability has been dropped for off-table.


Thanks again
Adam

I should add - that other army lists have off-table Self propelled guns listed with Exposed ability.

E.g. British Army NW Europe ....Priest and Sexton .....although amusingly - both are listed as AIR units!


Hence - ref Wespe example ...I was suggesting that this unit should also carry Exposed ability off table as well as on-table.


Hence confusion reigns!

Hi Adam

Not quite -

Tracked ability off table is there to make it easier to command (+1) because the unit is deemed to be more 'prepared' to fire quickly at a command.
Also a -1 for counter-battery as the unit can be moved quickly

Exposed (off-table) is pointless as almost all artillery units are effectively Exposed (cannot think of one that is - maybe other than the Bishop?)

There are lots of tracked artillery on-table that are Exposed but this is usually covered off in their Hits and Save as they are deployed as standard guns with dismounted crews.
Wespes and Priests etc as IGs can be classified as Exposed on-table as they are often in a more 'front-line' role. Same as Hellcats or Marders.

Or am I confusing you even more?