Overhead Firing

[AJ at the Bank]

Sadly yes - even more confused.

(1) Unless I completely miss-read the Tracked ability ....its all just about movement adjustments ....none of which matter for off-table units. Hence seemingly redundant. Other rules on +1 to command SP Artillery and 6 to hit SPGs are from BKCII - when no abilities existed.

(2) Some off-table artillery are listed with the Exposed Ability (which only applies to them when receiving Counter-Battery fire I think) E.g. Priest / Sexton.......others are not E.g. Wespe. Surely this should be consistent?


Thanks for bearing with me!

[Big Insect]

The Tracked ability does apply off-table.
It adds a -1 to the FAO CV when ordering (as the unit is assumed to be more ready to fire - not having to notionally deploy)
It adds a +1 to the CV for an enemy FAO ordering a counter-battery strike as the Tracked units are assumed not to need to redeploy to move off quickly after firing.

If the WESPE has Exposed against it in it's off-table stats - it's an error - as all Offtable artillery are considered to be Exposed and that is already taken into account in their hits and saves factors.

NB: we had had a number of issues with the Army lists - these are primarily to do with cut & paste issues and also the fact that no matter how thoroughly we proof read them and play-tested them & we had over 20 players globally doing this, issues, errors and omissions have (sadly) crept in.

These will all get corrected in the updated PDFs and errata listings which are being compiled.

Thanks

Mark

[Dr Dave]

The Tracked ability is a good one as it covers a couple of points around mobility and also the fact that tracked artillery is generally more ready to fire than a gun that is towed and needs to be deployed.

...Assuming all artillery is in perpetual motion before the action starts... and since towed guns are always at this disadvantage they are assumed to never properly deploy?

I know it's has ever been thus in all bkc rules, but it is really daft! 

[Big Insect]

It's something that needs to be factored into the points cost for Tracked guns v towed guns.

I'm not so convinced it is that daft Dave - the whole 'shoot & skoot' tactic is exactly what a tracked artillery piece is designed for - that and the ability to keep up with the armoured advance.

Having watched how long it takes a modern 105mm gun to unhitch, deploy, get ammo ready, lay the gun etc. I'd a say that towed artillery is at a considerable disadvantage compared with tracked artillery - especially vehicles like Wespes or M7 Priests etc.

It could be argued that they carried less artillery than their towed counterparts of course but we getting into another level of abstraction there 

Cheers

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The major problem with artillery is surveying in - and this takes some 30 minutes, what ever your gun is. For modern warfare in NWE, NATO had pre surveyed points all over Germany, and from the early 90's GPS, so no need to survey in.  To move is the same for all periods, move tractor to gun, load up the dumped ammunition, cable and speakers (British artillery at least had a tannoy system to pass on firing data), and drive off - 5-10 minutes. The Survey problem would be overcome by send out advanced parties to overcome the delay.

Tracked and wheeled SP's really don't get any advantage in the process if it's planed properly.

Ian S

[Dr Dave]

I'm not so convinced it is that daft Dave - the whole 'shoot & skoot' tactic is exactly what a tracked artillery piece is designed for - that and the ability to keep up with the armoured advance.

Having watched how long it takes a modern 105mm gun to unhitch, deploy, get ammo ready, lay the gun etc. I'd a say that towed artillery is at a considerable disadvantage compared with tracked artillery - especially vehicles like Wespes or M7 Priests etc.

It could be argued that they carried less artillery than their towed counterparts of course but we getting into another level of abstraction...

From your first comment it's the SP gun, being mobile, is the one least likely to be ready to fire! I can only point to the numerous battles where the guns are ready to fire support when called. Also, the comms links established before the battle mean that they'd know who was able to support. And as I be said, Pete Jones admitted it was just there to make then different. Not based in any actual combat accounts. All guns take time to come into action. I watched mortars firing from the back of APCs and it seemed to take an age to fire at a target they could see! In our group we've never bothered with the modifier and simply use the FAO cv, and then -1 for smoke.

To use the difference when the arty is deployed and ready, or has already fired it is very odd.

Imagine a 25 pdr regt firing scheduled support, then later the FAO requests them to fire - the rules assume that they're on the move! Like I said, they're all in a state of perpetual motion never ever able to come to rest, fire and then stay there. 

The SP gun might carry less ammo, but it has supply and ammo trucks you'd hope.

The difference in game terms is the armour, so tougher vs CB fire.

[AJ at the Bank]

Thanks Mark

Now I don't want to waste your time - so feel free to leave it as this point if I am just being stupid -
But Im feeling like im reading a different set of rules to you here!
 
Reference your two points below on Tracked ability - where is this in the rulebook please? ..That's what im trying to understand -
"(1) It adds a -1 to the FAO CV when ordering (as the unit is assumed to be more ready to fire - not having to notionally deploy)
(2) It adds a +1 to the CV for an enemy FAO ordering a counter-battery strike as the Tracked units are assumed not to need to redeploy to move off quickly after firing."

On (1) : Maybe a reference to the table on p47 for Requesting Art Support? Where this is a +1 (not -1) for an FAO requesting support if ALL units are self-propelled (defined as having a move value...nothing to do with Tracked ability). Perhaps this table was meant to be updated to refer to Tracked ability - but that didn't happen?

On (2) : No idea here. There is a Counter-Battery fire benefit to defender - whereby self-propelled guns are harder to hit (nothing to do with CV though). The Tracked ability definition on p79 sheds no light.

I'm wondering if the intention of Tracked here is different to the published rules?


Finally - ref Exposed ability ....Im saying that some off-table self-propelled units have this in the Lists ...and some do not. Sounds like you are saying none should - so thats a change to the lists thats needed - and clears this up

Thanks again
Adam

[Big Insect]

We'll pick this up Alan

But the principle that Self-propelled and Tracked can be interchangeable as far as counter-battery is concerned should be taken as read, as nodoubt there are probably some wheeled (self propelled) artillery units that should be covered.

Exposed should apply as standard to all off-table artillery units except where specified in the list (we'll sort this out) as again it makes the not exposed ones less vulnerable

Thanks