Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Yes it is out folks ... for those of us addicted to Tolkien, it's our next 'fix'.
Will Amazon also be able to pull off a Disney style never ending Star Wars type, set of pre-quels, sequels, spin-offs and side stories etc. etc.???

I must say that so far (2 episodes in) I am rather enjoying it. But then I have been a Tolkien addict from a very early age (my dad read us all the Hobbit as a bedtime story).
No major blunders or goofs. I am liking the anti-Elf animosity from Dwarves & Men ... and the arrival of the Maiar/Istari  is handled very well. I also particularly like the 'sea worm' - I had to freezeframe the image to get a good look at its head - which looks a lot like old medieval sea-monster illustrations.

My only slight issue is 'Why do the Hobbits have a mix of Irish & Westcountry accents and the Dwarves Scottish?' It seems a bit stereotypical and more than a bit ethnic-typecasting!

Anyway - looking forward to a bit more 'darkness' to come - the new Sauron symbol will make its way into my growing Dark Forces table-top armies.

We're enjoying to too Mark, much more so than the new Game of Thrones prequel. It is visually superb and really crisp, compared to GoT which one review said looked like it hade been made with Minecraft. A bit uncharitable, but when you compare the two you can see why.

I've been trying to keep the family up to speed with what's going on, but I read the Silmarillion in the 70's and found it hard going. Luckily I bought the Tolkein bestriary book many years ago which makes for a handy reference for what's going on.

Will GW or other produces new figures ranges to go with this? I imagine we'll see new armies made etc from existing ranges to play this setting, which could be fun.

I like the fact that Galadriel is basically insane

QuoteWhy do the Hobbits have a mix of Irish & Westcountry accents and the Dwarves Scottish?

Aye, and the country-living humans we've seen so far all have northern (English) accents, and the elves all use received pronunciation.

You could close your eyes and instantly know the race of the character speaking.

I suspect that any more sophisticated, urban-dwelling humans we come across in future will speak 'posh' English, but not as posh as the elves.

Every "Universe", whether Tolkien, Star Wars, Marvel or CS Lewis seems doomed to a lingering fate.

The rich seam of the "main books" provides good stuff.
Successive *quels continue as the seam grows thinner and thinner.

Each fan will decide where to draw the line.
I guess I'm not a stayer, and don't get excited by the idea of franchise owners cranking a handle.

Tolkien: The Silmarillion: The unpronounceable names, the repetition, the recycled old testament imagery.
Star Wars: Probably hung on too long - the fight while surfing the volcano was the final straw.
Marvel: Never got into that one.
CS Lewis: Dropped off before the end of the author's own work.

QuoteAye, and the country-living humans we've seen so far all have northern (English) accents, and the elves all use received pronunciation.

You could close your eyes and instantly know the race of the character speaking.

I suspect that any more sophisticated, urban-dwelling humans we come across in future will speak 'posh' English, but not as posh as the elves.

I think we have various radio, screen and live broadcast RPG adaptations to thank for those tropes.

QuoteEvery "Universe", whether Tolkien, Star Wars, Marvel or CS Lewis seems doomed to a lingering fate.

The rich seam of the "main books" provides good stuff.
Successive *quels continue as the seam grows thinner and thinner.

Each fan will decide where to draw the line.
I guess I'm not a stayer, and don't get excited by the idea of franchise owners cranking a handle.

Tolkien: The Silmarillion: The unpronounceable names, the repetition, the recycled old testament imagery.
Star Wars: Probably hung on too long - the fight while surfing the volcano was the final straw.
Marvel: Never got into that one.
CS Lewis: Dropped off before the end of the author's own work.

Tolkein: Stopped after seeing the first 'Hobbit' film - dreadful, and full of stuff I do not remember from the book.
Star Wars: I've heard that more films were made after 'Return of the Jedi'. I've never seen any of them. This image explains the problem with 'modern' Star Wars:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/85/7e/68857ece2d44643012cc6825e982f841.jpg)

Marvel: Started off as fun, rapidly became a grind. Only interested because I did read these comics as a child.
Narnia: Nope, not interested.

Others - 'The Golden Compass' - so good it instantly killed that franchise. Ditto, the Tom Cruise 'Mummy' film, meant to be the start of a new 'dark universe' franchise.

DC Comics: Never read these, no vested interest. Seen a couple, found them dull, esp. compared to the Marvel films.

More with Raider4 than Big Insect.

The "Rings" is set in the 2nd age before Hobbits appeared. Galadriel is a female of great power and authority; compassion and poise. Put her in armour and she's not Galadriel any more. 

"The doom of the Elves is to be immortal, to love the beauty of the world, to bring it to full flower with their gifts of delicacy and perfection, to last while it lasts, never leaving it even when 'slain', but returning – and yet, when the Followers come, to teach them, and make way for them, to 'fade' as the Followers grow and absorb the life from which both proceed. The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world."  ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

So how did this elf get to be so old?
(https://dab57h0r8ahff.cloudfront.net/580784/uploads/b05b7780-206a-11ed-ae27-874395f11741_1200_630.jpeg)

Dwarf princesses without beards; weren't elves meant to have been born before the sun and the moon - so how did they develop darkened skin?

It may be fantasy, it may be pretty, but it ain't Tolkein.

Quote from: aider4 on 04 September 2022, 10:33:08 AMMarvel: Started off as fun, rapidly became a grind. Only interested because I did read these comics as a child.

DC Comics: Never read these, no vested interest. Seen a couple, found them dull, esp. compared to the Marvel films.

I was the opposite. Read DC mostly. I hated the MCU finding it incredibly boring and a CGI-fest. DC films are a mix. The best is the first Wonder Woman film and the first half of the Aquaman series. I found the first series of Daredevil on TV better, but they should have got him into costume quicker. Similarly, the first series of Arrow was watchable. However both companies seem to flog all their characters to death.     

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_nzwtJcU9ta0qxUTsCZfa4RC_wI2RGWG3YMMT1nv5GK_ZkDApTDoOqICIybRRvZO9AtQ&usqp=CAU)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzSA-_P8i33Uly_0KMuRdx9DeZhUk5nxM-eA&usqp=CAU)


I just think they look a bit similar

Started first episode lasted until Twiddle-dee-dee Lord Lenny of Henry turned up, not for me. I'm interested in Tolkien Middle Earth not a Disney Hollywood fantasy.

I like the one where Elrond sends in his quick bowlers against the Mordor XI.

(https://images.mubicdn.net/images/film/191830/cache-294240-1514405351/image-w1280.jpg)

QuoteMy only slight issue is 'Why do the Hobbits have a mix of Irish & Westcountry accents and the Dwarves Scottish?' It seems a bit stereotypical and more than a bit ethnic-typecasting!

You can't have the production of any major franchise media without a row involving ethnicity and gender.


Just imagine how angry people will be at the High Elf Steel Band that appears at the end of episode 5

The irritating thing about the precious "we're all inclusive and huggy now" lot strikes me as being the absence of Asiatics. There are quite a lot of them in reality.

QuoteI think we have various radio, screen and live broadcast RPG adaptations to thank for those tropes.

The fact that we've all noticed these accents, suggests to me we're not actually being engaged by the program.


Similar to when you're watching 'something', and you're sat there thinking 'Gosh, the CGI/animation of this character is really good'.

If I'm thinking about the quality of CGI or animation, or the distribution of accents by race then there's something wrong somewhere else.

QuoteI like the one where Elrond sends in his quick bowlers against the Mordor XI.

(https://images.mubicdn.net/images/film/191830/cache-294240-1514405351/image-w1280.jpg)

Damned unsportsmanlike behaviour, don'cha know! You'll cause a diplomatic incident. Or a war that will last thousands of years.

Quote(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_nzwtJcU9ta0qxUTsCZfa4RC_wI2RGWG3YMMT1nv5GK_ZkDApTDoOqICIybRRvZO9AtQ&usqp=CAU)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzSA-_P8i33Uly_0KMuRdx9DeZhUk5nxM-eA&usqp=CAU)


I just think they look a bit similar

Aye, and the guy playing Elrond reminded me of Michael Sheen doing his Tony Blair impression.

Being old and set in my ways I was determined not to like it. I watched episode one and was impressed by the production values but with several eye-rolls over story, character and dialog.

After episode 2, however, I might actually like it. It is developing some interesting story arcs and I am slowing becoming invested in some of characters. The question I would pose anyone is how did Galadriel of the 3rd age become who she is? Maybe the adolescent we see in the 2nd age is necessary to her final form.

I could never wade through the Silmarillion so I am not blinded by orthodoxy.

It MAY turn out to be good story telling and worth the watch. So far it is better than the Hobbit "Trilogy".

I've got this on my 'To Watch' list but with House of the Dragon starting as well I can only manage one expansive Fantasy series at a time without my brain merging storylines/characters.

The thing is, this is post Silmarillion, it's been written to fill one of the many (probably deliberate) gaps that Tolkien appears to have left in the saga's.
We get references to the Silmarillions in the 2nd episode and also more about Morgoth, but this is not Tolkien, as he makes very little (if any) reference to the story around the creation of the Rings of Power.
In that way it is a very clever piece of film and franchise making, as Tolkien hints at many such important side stories with no real detail.

Personally I'd be up for a major movie covering the Silmarillion - all those various Balrogs, cold worms, werewolves etc.
I also suspect we can probably expect a series covering the wars between the Dwarves & Elves.

Quote from: Raider4 on 04 September 2022, 10:15:19 AMAye, and the country-living humans we've seen so far all have northern (English) accents, and the elves all use received pronunciation.

Seems also to be a lot of rural Irish accents as well.

We thought the Harfoots sounded Irish rather than West Country.

I was also a big fan of the first couple of Hellboy films - shame the 3rd was so truly terrible.
I'd like to see more of that sort of 'Lovecraft inspired' fantasy - could never remember if Hellboy was DC or Marvel - never really cared, if truth be told  :d

Quote from: Leon on 04 September 2022, 09:39:26 PMI've got this on my 'To Watch' list but with House of the Dragon starting as well I can only manage one expansive Fantasy series at a time without my brain merging storylines/characters.

I might be one of the very few (on this forum anyway) who hasn't watched GoT. I saw part of one episode on a plane journey (remember those - back in the olden days) but found it a bit dull. I had the same problem with Harry Potter. I read a couple of books to the children but found the plagiarism of J.R.R.Tolkien and C.S.Lewis and others too much to cope with. Whilst Tolkien borrows heavily from old Saxon, German and Norse legends, you do get a feel that he is at least trying to create something new-new. The argument that J.K.Rowling used Harry Potter to make fantasy more accessible is a bit thin IMHO. I suspect that if I settled down and actually made an effort to watch GoT I might enjoy it - but maybe that's a project for my retirement  :D

Quote from: Big Insect on 05 September 2022, 07:54:39 AMI might be one of the very few (on this forum anyway) who hasn't watched GoT.

My wife and I watched the entire series over a month during the first lockdown while self-isolating.  The Chinese and their wretched COVID have a lot to answer for.  It was OK and passed the time until the last series where it was almost as if they ran out of ideas.  The ending was the biggest anti-climax imaginable.  The first episode of House of the Dragon was replete with gratuitous violence and sex and not much else.  I'll persevere as the characters may develop but at this stage I'm not too hopeful.
I agree about Harry Potter. I've seen several of the films on TV but haven't read any of the books.  I thought it was just a second-rate Tolkien/Lewis knock-off aimed at children. 
I read all Tolkien's stuff years ago and thought the films were more entertaining.  I am not persuaded by a look-alike 'Tolkien' series, seems a bit unoriginal to me but the entire movie industry seems terminally repetitive and bereft of ideas at the moment.

I've never watched/read any Harry Potter either, just doesn't float my boat.  I have a weird issue with child actors and rarely find them believable in their roles.  I loved the Narnia books as a kid but can't watch the films as most of the main actors annoy me!

I agree Leon - it's probably why I cannot engage with any of the teen vampire/werewolf stuff either.

Quote from: Big Insect on 05 September 2022, 02:07:18 PMI agree Leon - it's probably why I cannot engage with any of the teen vampire/werewolf stuff either.

Yep, no time for any of that!  Twilight and the endless vampire TV series just don't do it for me.  Buffy was OK for a few years as it seemed to understand it's own cheese level. 

I found it relatively watchable and much better than those execrable Jackson films; I am not horrified at the black proto-Hobbits and Elves and can have a non-aggression pact with Lenny Henry if necessary.

"What we were trying to do was to analyze what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves. The most honest form of filmmaking is to make a film for yourself. The worst type is dictated by demographics or what is hip or what kids are into." - Peter Jackson

"But that was then, this is now and we're telling the story now." - Lenny Henry.

C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas Tolkein.

QuoteBuffy was OK for a few years as it seemed to understand it's own cheese level. 

Ahh, no children there. Cordelia was played by a 27 year old and Xander by a 26 year old when the series started. Even Alyson Hannigan was 23. At least Sarah M-G was a teenager (just).


They were all supposed to be ~16-17.

See also Grease.

Quote. The most honest form of filmmaking is to make a film for yourself. The worst type is dictated by demographics or what is hip or what kids are into." - Peter Jackson


C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas Tolkein.

That is from the guy who turned the short children's book into three interminably long films and inserted a sexy female elf and a love triangle into them!

Quote
C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas Tolkein.

I enjoyed the first two episode - much better than, say, Wheel of Time or The Witcher - and will keep watching.


Having Galadriel as the focus removes any sense of peril. We know she's not going to fall from an icy cliff, or be eaten by a sea monster, or die in any other way.

QuoteThat is from the guy who turned the short children's book into three interminably long films and inserted a sexy female elf and a love triangle into them!

I wonder if it's possible to strip out anything and everything not in the book from those films and make a decent  coherent film?

Quote from: Raider4 on 05 September 2022, 05:01:48 PMCordelia was played by a 27 year old

So beyond the dating age for late middle-aged Hollywood actors.

QuoteI wonder if it's possible to strip out anything and everything not in the book from those films and make a decent  coherent film?

Possibly - as long as they keep the female elf


also - is this really really Tolkien or Frank Herbert?

Quotealso - is this really really Tolkien or Frank Herbert?

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 05 September 2022, 05:19:00 PMMore Harry Potter unfortunately - why introduce the worm burrowing things I don't know ... at least the LotR films seem to remotely stick to the basic plot - no new monsters.
But then we got Billy Connolly on a Goat in the last Hobbit movie and it all went a lot Games Workshit (sadly)

Well we're enjoying the series for what it is at present, without trying to over think/analyse it.

Quote from: Steve J on 05 September 2022, 06:55:33 PMWell we're enjoying the series for what it is at present, without trying to over think/analyse it.

Thanks for bring us back to that point Steve  :)
I am looking forward to the next episode on Friday.

Quote from: fsn on 05 September 2022, 04:51:44 PM"What we were trying to do was to analyze what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves. The most honest form of filmmaking is to make a film for yourself. The worst type is dictated by demographics or what is hip or what kids are into." - Peter Jackson

"But that was then, this is now and we're telling the story now." - Lenny Henry.

C'est magnifique mais ce n'est pas Tolkein.

Peter Jackson and Lenny Henry are fluent in bullshit.

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 05 September 2022, 05:19:00 PMPossibly - as long as they keep the female elf


also - is this really really Tolkien or Frank Herbert?

Love the Dwarf's reaction about 0:30 seconds into the clip on seeing giant wormy things...."Ohhhhh come on!!!" ;)
 

Quote from: pierre the shy on 06 September 2022, 02:20:18 AMLove the Dwarf's reaction about 0:30 seconds into the clip on seeing giant wormy things...."Ohhhhh come on!!!" ;)
 

I had the same reaction

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 06 September 2022, 03:14:03 AMI had the same reaction

I think you'll need to add that to the bottom of your posts FP  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Quote from: Big Insect on 06 September 2022, 07:23:43 AMI think you'll need to add that to the bottom of your posts FP  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

I edited my original comment as it involved mention of the well-documented Dwarf Vijyanta equipped armoured brigade and Witch Elf spider riders.

"Ohhhhh come on!!!"

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 06 September 2022, 08:07:10 AMI edited my original comment as it involved mention of the well-documented Dwarf Vijyanta equipped armoured brigade and Witch Elf spider riders.

But they were never used - WRONG  :d  :d  :d  :d

QuoteI wonder if it's possible to strip out anything and everything not in the book from those films and make a decent  coherent film?

I believe that this HAS been done... somewhere on the Net. Have not looked.
Cutting down 3 large tomes of LOTR into 3 movies... Yeah.
Expanding 1 smallish book into 3 movies! Whole Load of c**p!
I likes 'The Hobbit' best of Books!

TV series... maybe... 'a bit 'divorced' from Tolkien... well, when it comes out on DVD...  maybe.

I've not had a chance to watch yet but intend to. Been ignoring most of the vitriol online as the usual polarised nonsense. It may be good, it may be bad, it doesn't take away from the original work. I enjoyed lord of the rings films but found the hobbit films tiresome. But I know others who enjoyed them both.

A big part of the issue with the series is Amazon didn't have rights to any of the core books, so is having to stitch together it's own story based on the snippets of lore and obviously compress some things to make a coherent story.

The stuff about Tolkien turning in his grave I don't know... maybe, but he as much as anyone would know myth and legend, which his world is firmly rooted in, are not monolithic stories but living tales that adapt and inspire each generation in their own way. It's why we have so many different versions of so many myths and legends, because people take different things from them at different times and apply their own influences and adaptions to suit the needs of the story teller and audience. The idea of a story as a static entity is largely the invention of modern literature. 

I don't think the creators of the show are looking to change it beyond all recognition, but create a story that connects to the world and lore but still resonates with a modern audience. Whether they succeed or not will remain to be seen!

QuotePeter Jackson and Lenny Henry are fluent in bullshit.

They speak very highly of you.

My point was that Jackson tried hard to keep to the spirit of Tolkein, Amazon are just using a title and a few character names to attract fans to a series that has only a passing semblance to the original lore.  "Rings of Power" is to Tolkein as "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" is to Austen.

QuoteThey speak very highly of you.

My point was that Jackson tried hard to keep to the spirit of Tolkein, Amazon are just using a title and a few character names to attract fans to a series that has only a passing semblance to the original lore.  "Rings of Power" is to Tolkein as "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" is to Austen.

Hey, I liked Pride and Prejeudice and Zombies.


I've just not found a suitable set of rules yet.

QuoteHey, I liked Pride and Prejeudice and Zombies.


I've just not found a suitable set of rules yet.

Would The Silver Bayonet work? Not played but seem suitable...

QuoteHey, I liked Pride and Prejeudice and Zombies.


I've just not found a suitable set of rules yet.

I liked  Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter; largely as it annoyed the right people

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 07 September 2022, 11:46:41 AMHey, I liked Pride and Prejeudice and Zombies.

You make my point for me. I thought the "and zombies" added to a rather turgid and dated tale, but I wouldn't put the zombies on the same shelf as the original in a library. Similarly Amazon's Ring just ain't Tolkein, but if you like it, knock yourself out.     

Just reminded me

Cannot be worse than ITV ,'Beowulf: Return to the Shieldlands', 2016. Virtually NO historical context, apart from names. PC casting with frequently 'poor' acting'. Effects not bad... but a 'Sand worm'? Even the sets were just naff.  If it had been just a 'Fantasy' land, maybe... but nothing to do with Beowulf legend. Cancelled.... did not buy DVD! lol.

QuoteCannot be worse than ITV ,'Beowulf: Return to the Shieldlands', 2016. Virtually NO historical context, apart from names. PC casting with frequently 'poor' acting'. Effects not bad... but a 'Sand worm'? Even the sets were just naff.  If it had been just a 'Fantasy' land, maybe... but nothing to do with Beowulf legend. Cancelled.... did not buy DVD! lol.

Never heard of this, but I bet that an ITV budget is likely <5% of an HBO or Amazon budget.

Quote from: Raider4 on 10 September 2022, 07:28:41 AMNever heard of this, but I bet that an ITV budget is likely <5% of an HBO or Amazon budget.

Seems to me the one place that money never gets to be well spent is in the writers' room.

I see that in Rings of Power, MCU, STD, Dr Who etc, etc.

Well, I've enjoyed the first three episodes of Rings of Power, enjoyed The Witcher, love the MCU films (not so keen on the DC stuff), Dr Who suffered from the loss of Russell T Davis, The Star Wars spin-offs have been a welcome return to form after the first and third trilogies.

As far as I'm concerned we are in a golden age of screen science fiction and fantasy.

Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 September 2022, 11:02:20 AMWell, I've enjoyed the first three episodes of Rings of Power, enjoyed The Witcher, love the MCU films (not so keen on the DC stuff), Dr Who suffered from the loss of Russell T Davis, The Star Wars spin-offs have been a welcome return to form after the first and third trilogies.

As far as I'm concerned we are in a golden age of screen science fiction and fantasy.

I would tend to agree although I can't get on with the modern Dr Who,which I put down to the completely  unatmospheric incidental music.

I am afraid "Rings of Power" is not going to appeal to white supremacist gate keepers or other culture war enthusiasts.

Oh dear. Let's ignore the quality and go straight to accusations of racism.

Like I say. You like it, go for it. If it was not branded "Tolkein", it would pass rather unnoticed. Look at the Game of Thrones sequel. Very good reviews and (whisper it softly) it has black people in it!

QuoteOh dear. Let's ignore the quality and go straight to accusations of racism.

Well,there have been  negative comments largely aimed at the ethnicity  of some of the cast and often from the usual suspects. Just an side  but the cast of Jackson's LoTR and Hobbit disaster have commented on what  they perceive as  the racist motivation of some of the criticism.

https://nypost.com/2022/09/08/original-lotr-cast-supports-rings-of-power-amid-racist-attacks/ (https://nypost.com/2022/09/08/original-lotr-cast-supports-rings-of-power-amid-racist-attacks/)


So far I quite like it - I will tolerate Lenny Henry but I will draw the line at Sand Worms, should they appear

QuoteSo far I quite like it - I will tolerate Lenny Henry but I will draw the line at Sand Worms, should they appear

I'm still watching to see where they go, which is not quite the same as enjoying it. 'Tis a little bit slow, though.

No problems with how people look, but more with how they sound. Especially the proto-hobbits. Having non-Irish actors doing Irish accents and not always succeeding, veering away into their best country-bumpkin Mummerset every now and then.

Spoiler alert . . .






Didn't understand the Numenorean queen - she doesn't want the elf there at all, but she won't let her leave? Puzzled.

Quote from: Raider4 on 10 September 2022, 12:38:48 PMI'm still watching to see where they go, which is not quite the same as enjoying it. 'Tis a little bit slow, though.

No problems with how people look, but more with how they sound. Especially the proto-hobbits. Having non-Irish actors doing Irish accents and not always succeeding, veering away into their best country-bumpkin Mummerset every now and then.

Spoiler alert . . .






Didn't understand the Numenorean queen - she doesn't want the elf there at all, but she won't let her leave? Puzzled.

It is actually fun to try and identify the bits of pop culture the writers have purloined/re-purposed- Hobbit The Wicker Man and Galadriel Zero Dark Thirty.

The Numenorean queen is presumably in something of a quandary. She is where she is due to the  king being secluded for being too pro-Elf. However part of her kingdom is clearly not as anti-elf as the rest. And now some stupid sea captain, who couldn't leave well enough alone, has not only brought an elf to her court but an elf with a long and illustrious history still celebrated in her kingdom. The standard response of dropping the elf in an oubliette and sending the sea captain to patrol the farthest reaches of Numenorean seas, in a leaky boat, may cause more problems than it solves. What to do? What to do? :)

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 10 September 2022, 12:15:10 PMWell,there have been  negative comments largely aimed at the ethnicity  of some of the cast and often from the usual suspects. Just an side  but the cast of Jackson's LoTR and Hobbit disaster have commented on what  they perceive as  the racist motivation of some of the criticism.

Here's some first hand criticism.

Just Some Guy seems to know a lot of Tolkein. He can recite all sorts of esoteric facts, and he's not a fan of the show. Oh, and he's black.   
 
Az - not for those of delicate sensibilities. At about 4:20 he says he hasn't got to the politics because there is so much wrong with the show.   

Picked this chap at random: never watched him before.

There is criticism at the forced diversity (which is one of the show's proud boasts, remember) but is that racism? If so are those who criticised Scarlett Johannsen in "Ghost in the Shell" racists? What about those who complained about Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange? Are those who bemoaned Zeobia Shroff portraying Ms Marvel's mother because she is a non-Muslim Indian, and not a Pakistani Muslim also racists?

Or are there just double standards?

On the Harfoots, I've no objection to the casting but I am a little concerned that only Nori and "the giant" raise them above an Ewok level  cutesy comedy.

I've been impressed by Markella Kavenagh and Megan Richards as Nori and Poppy though, to be fair, they've had a bit more to get their teeth into than the others.

Bizarrely, the one thing that really grinds my gears is that an elf as old, martial and action focussed as Galadriel dyes her bloo ..... min hair!

QuoteBizarrely, the one thing that really grinds my gears is that an elf as old, martial and action focussed as Galadriel dyes her bloo ..... min hair!

Again, noticing things like "her roots need doing"* suggests that possibly you're not completely gripped by what you're watching?



* Yes, I noticed that too.

We haven't watched the latest episodes yet but haven't worried about the diversity in the casting. In fact, as our daughter who is mixed race (note not bi-racial as she is a mix of English, Welsh, Birom. Gashash and Fulani) has pointed out, for her it is nice to see people who, and I quote "look like her" on the screen. This is something that we as 'white people' tend not to realise.

On the subject of mixtures, I may just note that the most beautiful woman, and ditto man, I've ever seen were both half Italian.

QuoteAgain, noticing things like "her roots need doing"* suggests that possibly you're not completely gripped by what you're watching?



* Yes, I noticed that too.

It's more that I'm used to her being a brunette so every time she appears on screen I have to make a mental adjustment. The fact that I think she's prettier as a brunette may have something to do with it, though I'm sure elderly gentlemen such as I should not express such a thought in these "me too" days.

Quote from: fsn on 10 September 2022, 02:34:16 PMHere's some first hand criticism.

Just Some Guy seems to know a lot of Tolkein. He can recite all sorts of esoteric facts, and he's not a fan of the show. Oh, and he's black.   

 

Az - not for those of delicate sensibilities. At about 4:20 he says he hasn't got to the politics because there is so much wrong with the show.   

Picked this chap at random: never watched him before.

There is criticism at the forced diversity (which is one of the show's proud boasts, remember) but is that racism? If so are those who criticised Scarlett Johannsen in "Ghost in the Shell" racists? What about those who complained about Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange? Are those who bemoaned Zeobia Shroff portraying Ms Marvel's mother because she is a non-Muslim Indian, and not a Pakistani Muslim also racists?

Or are there just double standards?

That is far too many Youtube vidoes to watch and it would be better for you to precis them for me or perhaps be more traditional and tell me what you think

I am going to have to ask you what you mean by forced diversity as I don't recognise the term but I am pretty sure it is not one of the show's proud boasts.  I think I read LotR 2 1/2 times before the age of 13 so am somewhat jaded with the original story and certainly don't wish to experience it again. This might explain my boredom with the Jackson LotRs but for the record Jackson took a huge money-grubbing dump on Tolkien with the three Hobbit films. He certainly isn't a paragon of LotR brand purity.

Much like the LOTR films, it is faithful to Tolkien in that it has a variety of daft creatures and themes of existential menace alongside what Lenin might describe as scenes of rural idiocy. Its presentation of Middle Earth is very similar to Jackson's with the obvious exception of it not having sand worms but having non-white actors. I don't let the presence of non-white actors spoil the program for me but it obviously destroys the enjoyment for a vocal minority. However, at least they can have fun being outraged and make a little profit from being so. Everyone wins!

Quote from: Raider4 on 10 September 2022, 02:50:05 PMAgain, noticing things like "her roots need doing"* suggests that possibly you're not completely gripped by what you're watching?

* Yes, I noticed that too.

Actually suggests the reverse

Quote from: fsn on 10 September 2022, 02:34:16 PMThere is criticism at the forced diversity (which is one of the show's proud boasts, remember) but is that racism? If so are those who criticised Scarlett Johannsen in "Ghost in the Shell" racists? What about those who complained about Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange? Are those who bemoaned Zeobia Shroff portraying Ms Marvel's mother because she is a non-Muslim Indian, and not a Pakistani Muslim also racists?

Or are there just double standards?

Possibly- as there are obviously people who complain about one sort of "forced diversity" but not another. ;)

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 10 September 2022, 04:25:43 PMThat is far too many Youtube vidoes to watch and it would be better for you to precis them for me or perhaps be more traditional snd tell me what you think

No, that's OK. Just trying to get you to look at some primary sources. Don't want to do all the work for you.


I'm withdrawing from this thread. My point remains that if you like the show, enjoy it. I found it to be tedious beyond belief with the main character being totally unlikeable. I didn't think it reflected Tolkein's work. If it did not pretend to be Tolkein, it would still be an awful programme. I'm not getting into the diversity minefield, 'cos to be honest it's a red herring that is being used to devalue legitimate criticism.   

Quote from: fsn on 10 September 2022, 05:50:01 PMNo, that's OK. Just trying to get you to look at some primary sources. Don't want to do all the work for you.

I'm withdrawing from this thread. My point remains that if you like the show, enjoy it. I found it to be tedious beyond belief with the main character being totally unlikeable. I didn't think it reflected Tolkein's work. If it did not pretend to be Tolkein, it would still be an awful programme. I'm not getting into the diversity minefield, 'cos to be honest it's a red herring that is being used to devalue legitimate criticism.   

You seem to have relied on posting other people's work and if "forced "diversity was a red herring it was one you were more than happy to wave around.

Having now watched the videos fsn posted I'd like to say that I don't accept any of the points Just Some Guy raises.

If he, and you dear readers, don't like it, don't watch it.

If you do like it, then I'm with you. May it continue to entertain us.

QuoteHaving now watched the videos fsn posted I'd like to say that I don't accept any of the points Just Some Guy raises.

If he, and you dear readers, don't like it, don't watch it.

If you do like it, then I'm with you. May it continue to entertain us.

+1 Ithoriel

If not liking it purhaps a quick trip to Mount Doom to cast your AP device into the abyss is in order?  :-\ 

'Forced Diversity'...in other words, 'Quotas'... is Racism / Sexism under a different flag. But some will NEVER see it as such. Too much 'investment' in their own argument. Most people do not  'want' ANY of it... just a good production... but some keep pushing... and others react. Let good actors or writers be... if a role is 'suitable'...it will be! Bad writing or casting...is just BAD.

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 11 September 2022, 10:17:04 AM'Forced Diversity'...in other words, 'Quotas'... is Racism / Sexism under a different flag.

So you have evidence that there was a quota system involved in the hiring of actors for "Rings of Power"  ???!

Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 September 2022, 10:06:35 PMHaving now watched the videos fsn posted I'd like to say that I don't accept any of the points Just Some Guy raises.

If he, and you dear readers, don't like it, don't watch it.

If you do like it, then I'm with you. May it continue to entertain us.

That is eminently sensible advice

Sadly, YouTube has managed to create an industry out of what might be termed toxic fandom and knocking copy. I used to think that the Star Wars were the worst of the bunch but I am now beginning to have doubts on that.

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 11 September 2022, 11:02:01 AMSo you have evidence that there was a quota system involved in the hiring of actors for "Rings of Power"

I have not yet watched , so no opinion as yet! If there was... no-one would say. But, I have read of actors of colour ... some good... stridently complaining of lack of 'lead' roles in years gone by... perhaps because there WERE few such jobs. Then recently, 'casting' has gone all over the place. They want to be 'Leads', so directors are shoving them in wherever they can!
Sometimes it can work well... but sometimes casting just 'jars', detracting from the production.
We Cannot know just how many 'knights or Nobles' may have had coloured ancestry... but I very much doubt that there would have been many. Sometimes, it can be made to fit... 'Porthos' In BBC 'Musketeers', jarred... but was made to work. Certainly, in Roman period, there would have been a very mixed bunch of Officer classes... and recently, British Empire has been shown to have many more.  'coloured' Officers than previously thought.
But simply casting to employ and 'access' audiences... just ain't right. Back in 70s there was a whole crop of movies with Coloured leads... good movies...but, audiences called them...(I cannot remember the word!)... but derogatory! Because, at the time, 'Black' was the New thing. 'Blacksploitation'?
If a role works... then ok... but not TOO many leads. Actor has to fit Role, not Role has to fit actor available.

I really don't understand this obsession with the race and gender of actors. All I want is someone who can deliver the lines with conviction. If Shakespeare was OK with a male Ophelia why baulk at a female Hamlet? If it was OK for white men in make-up to play Othello, why wouldn't it be OK for Desdemona to be Japanese or African-American, or whatever?

As for "Tolkein's Middle Earth was white European" well, yes it was, and shame on him for that but he was a product of white male-centric milieu and can be forgiven a little for that.

But to perpetuate that as though it is a good thing is, in my eyes, shameful. It's a big wide world out there full of interesting and resourceful people lets see as wide a spectrum of them as we can.

To swap genres, I'm with Gene Rodenberry's Vulcans, IDIC - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

Live long and prosper!

I haven't watch this new Tolkien 'knock-off' yet but I've been reading all this with a mixture of exasperation and resignation.  It seems to me that as the films in question are fantasy, you can cast characters of any ethnicity you like.  The trouble with Tolkien is that his stories, albeit not set in any real world, have established traditions and there is nothing wrong with that at all.  But, what it means, it seems to me, is that the priority for casting ought to conform to the established mythology, rather than ethnicity, gender or whatever, simply to meet the requirements of some artificial diversity agenda.  The characters ought to makes sense and if they don't it is inevitable, I think, that they will attract adverse comment for all kinds of reasons, some legitimate, others not so much.  Aspiring to inclusivity and diversity can be a good thing sometimes, but often it just leads to ridicule, as it did when a black actress was cast as Anne Boleyn, but that was portraying events in a real world setting, not fantasy, and it made no sense from any angle. 

I can understand people not liking RoP and I can even understand them having problems with the depiction of some of the characters by what is now popularly known as people of colour. What I cannot understand for the life of me is how it is acceptable to harass the actors involved, if I did such a thing I would feel I had failed as a human being.

I have just finished watching the third episode, and reading the various comments here. I have not watched the you tube clips.

I was not surprised with the inclusion of various ethinicities in the show. It is part of modern society, I just feel that they could have been made more believable. Races in general consist of mainly of people with similar looks, with some inclusion of other races. The mix seems almost to be a shotgun effect.

To my mind it would have made more sense to make the majority of characters of each of the races of similar ethnicity, with A number of mixed heritage in each race.  They are after all defined in Tolkien as races not countries.

I fully understand Steve's very valid point that his daughter sees people that look like her, but why not make an entire race in the story of African heritage.

That said it is a Fantasy/mythical adventure and whatever shade characters are should not spoil the telling of a story (in Avatar they are blue with tails and this seems to be accepted by those watching it)


My biggest problem is the way the characters are portrayed. The Harfoots seem to be very simpletons

The giant that crash landed I believe is supposed to be Maiar (probably Gandalf) but appears to be a half wit.

Galadriel is supposed to be Regal, self controlled and wise, not the rebel she is portrayed as. Not someone stupid enough to jump off ship in the middle of a huge ocean.

But as FSN says "if you don't like it, don't watch it"

For me the jury is still out.

I fully understand Steve's very valid point that his daughter sees people that look like her, but why not make an entire race in the story of African heritage.

I always thought the Southrons fitted that description but perhaps they were just supposed to be Latins.

I have sometimes wondered why... given the potentially Massive 'Audience' Draw...no movie / TV makers have ever explored 'Tribal' Africa? Yes, 'Roots' Or 'Zulu'... but that is relatively late in history of the continent... and goes for the Slavery/ Imperialism perspective.

No written histories to my knowledge... but 'lore' and 'legends' must be there? Potential 'Dynasties', Tribal conflict or 'Fantasy Occult' elements? 'Historical' would be best... but...

 If TV series such as 'Vikings' can provide good 'a-historical' drama... given the numbers of good coloured actors... why not?

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 12 September 2022, 01:32:14 AMI have sometimes wondered why... given the potentially Massive 'Audience' Draw...no movie / TV makers have ever explored 'Tribal' Africa? Yes, 'Roots' Or 'Zulu'... but that is relatively late in history of the continent... and goes for the Slavery/ Imperialism perspective.

No written histories to my knowledge... but 'lore' and 'legends' must be there? Potential 'Dynasties', Tribal conflict or 'Fantasy Occult' elements? 'Historical' would be best... but...

 If TV series such as 'Vikings' can provide good 'a-historical' drama... given the numbers of good coloured actors... why not?

Good point. I am not familiar with African History/ mythology but I am sure there must be something more of interest there than the stuff from recent history.

I do wonder how people would feel though if they cast a white actor as Shaka in the spirit of inclusion?

To say that Tolkien's Middle Earth was all 'white European' is to ignore the facts behind the inspirations for Tolkien, who was (at his heart) a 'Dark Ages' scholar.

If you accept that Orcs were Hunnic types, Southron the equivalent of Nubian Africans, Numenorians/Gondor are Byzantines - and that Rohirrim were inspired by Sarmatians - you already have a fair mix of associated or implied ethnicity.

My original comments around racial stereotypes was not actually about race or colour or gender at all.
They were about the use of accents. Hobbits being depicted in an unnecessary way using rural UK or Irish accents and Dwarves Scottish. Surely in Middle Earth you can tell a Hobbit from a man/elf/dwarf/ork without the need to stereotype them with certain accents.

For the record - personally I have no issues at all with dark skinned or east asian elves/dwarves etc.
And Tolkien also had some very strong female roles in his books, especially in the Silmarillion. The fact that the film and this series has chosen to broaden out that aspect doesn't demine it at all IMHO - in fact it enhances it. As long as they are all good actors and the scripting is good and (most of all for me) the continuity is good - along side the visual effects - which in this case are as least as good as the films - I'm a happy watcher.

And the series is growing on me ...

Mark

We watched the third episode and it was a bit slow, but still we are very much enjoying.

Quote from: Steve J on 12 September 2022, 10:01:17 AMWe watched the third episode and it was a bit slow, but still we are very much enjoying.

Agreed - my wife drifted off into her knitting about half-way through - but it's all scene/stage setting at present. As a Tolkien fan, I am just interested in how the next new 'portrayal' is going to look. And I liked the representation of the Numemor. All very 'byzantine'.

The set designers must have had a field day Mark and we thought Numenor was especially well done too.

Quote from: Steve J on 12 September 2022, 12:46:08 PMThe set designers must have had a field day Mark and we thought Numenor was especially well done too.

Quote from: Big Insect on 12 September 2022, 10:27:16 AMAnd I liked the representation of the Numemor. All very 'byzantine'.

I had the same reaction

I don't really give two hoots about the ethnicity of the actors as long as it makes sense within the narrative.  If we've got a bunch of northmen from the frozen wastelands then I'm expecting to see pasty pale skin and a lot of furs.  And obviously if you're from a desert region then I'd expect darker skinner folks.  And actors within each 'tribe' should look reasonably similar if we're dealing with a time period where long distance travel would be usually be limited to soldiers and traders.

Accents are similar in that it doesn't matter what the accent is but if you're from the same region/family then you should sound the same.

The only time I'd be more strict about it is when a particular character has been written in a very specific way, so something like Bond and the oft-repeated discussion about giving it to a female actor.  Bond should be left as the charming, alcoholic, womanising, damaged man that he is.  If we want a female-lead spy franchise then let's create a new character to take that role.

Have now seen episode 3 and continue to enjoy it more and more. I've said before I consider the production values excellent and Numenor did not disappoint.

The meta themes of Evil Is Patient and Beauty Can Deceive certainly reflect Tolkien
(and the sources he drew from). 

I agree with the many here, nobody is forced to watch it.

RoP was pre-billed as a wokefest which caused me to begin with a very negative view. So far it seems far from that. Any competent actor should be able to play any role, particularly in a fantasy. Let me emphasize competency rather than quota.

Quote from: Leon on 12 September 2022, 02:52:54 PMThe only time I'd be more strict about it is when a particular character has been written in a very specific way, so something like Bond and the oft-repeated discussion about giving it to a female actor.  Bond should be left as the charming, alcoholic, womanising, damaged man that he is.  If we want a female-lead spy franchise then let's create a new character to take that role.

Can you imagine a White "Shaft"

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 12 September 2022, 03:08:58 PMCan you imagine a White "Shaft"

Good point.  A white shaft would be as risible as a black Bond. 

Quote from: John Cook on 12 September 2022, 04:31:32 PMGood point.  A white shaft would be as risible and a black Bond. 

I can easily imagine a black Bond but a White Shaft would somehow be very hard to pull off I feel.


Just an aside but I was talking to the security at  the local university and the people they most hate are the members of the James Bond Society. Apparently they are just appallingly  rude and condescending - I suppose for the teen Bond fanciers the security guards are the closest they will get to  Dr No's minions or whatever.

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 12 September 2022, 04:42:09 PMI can easily imagine a black Bond but a White Shaft would somehow be very hard to pull off I feel.

I can't.  I really can't.  The lore and narrative is too well established.  Bond is an SIS officer and a Commander in the RNVR.  Not that that would disqualify a black actor necessarily, but he is also supposed to be of mixed Scottish and Swiss parentage, namely Andrew Bond, from the village of Glencoe, and one Monique Delacroix.  Casting a black actor as Bond would, in my view, make as much sense as casting a black actor as Sherlock Holmes or Richard Sharpe.  It doesn't fit the narrative.  Though, God knows, somebody thought it was a good idea to cast a black actress as Anne Boleyn. 
I had no idea such a thing as a James Bond Society existed, but I'm not surprised.  I find people attracted to those kinds of groups a little bit sad to be honest, but there is no law, as far as I know, that stops them making arses of themselves if they want to.

Quote from: Leon on 12 September 2022, 02:52:54 PMThe only time I'd be more strict about it is when a particular character has been written in a very specific way, so something like Bond and the oft-repeated discussion about giving it to a female actor.  Bond should be left as the charming, alcoholic, womanising, damaged man that he is.  If we want a female-lead spy franchise then let's create a new character to take that role.

If you want female alternative 'Bond' then try 'Atomic Blonde' with Charlize Theron in the title role. It worked perfectly well for me anyway  :D 

Quote from: John Cook on 12 September 2022, 04:31:32 PMGood point.  A white shaft would be as risible as a black Bond. 

Don't you get a 'black Bond' in Tenet?

QuoteI had no idea such a thing as a James Bond Society existed, but I'm not surprised.  I find people attracted to those kinds of groups a little bit sad to be honest, but there is no law, as far as I know, that stops them making arses of themselves if they want to.

I just found it unbelievable laughable that some 19 year old  would turn up in a tuxuedo and then try and gain some sort of satisfaction by being rude to a minimum wage night security worker.

Quote from: Big Insect on 12 September 2022, 05:11:33 PMDon't you get a 'black Bond' in Tenet?

I thought it was John David Washington auditioning for the role of Bond


Just a thought; to keep Bond edgy and relevant to the modern world the next film should be about him being prosecuted for sexual harassment.

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 12 September 2022, 03:08:58 PMCan you imagine a White "Shaft"

Not really, as the cultural background wouldn't fit.  Similarly a black Sherlock wouldn't work for me either, as the period setting wouldn't allow for it.  A modernised Sherlock (like Cumberbatch) could have been black though as you're bringing it to a different timeframe.

Quote from: Big Insect on 12 September 2022, 05:11:33 PMDon't you get a 'black Bond' in Tenet?

I don't think so.  Tenet just had a Bond-like central character.  He didn't even have a name as I remember.  There have been dozens of films with 'secret-agent' Bond-like characters but there is only one Fleming creation. 

Quote from: John Cook on 12 September 2022, 06:09:57 PMI don't think so.  Tenet just had a Bond-like central character.  He didn't even have a name as I remember.  There have been dozens of films with 'secret-agent' Bond-like characters but there is only one Fleming creation. 

Some people might argue that  007 is inspired by OSS 117

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSS_117 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSS_117)

Quote from: FierceKitty on 10 September 2022, 03:13:00 PMOn the subject of mixtures, I may just note that the most beautiful woman, and ditto man, I've ever seen were both half Italian.

I didn't know you were half Italian...

I wish....

Quote from: Ben Waterhouse on 13 September 2022, 10:04:32 AMI didn't know you were half Italian...

Don't be silly, Kitty doesn't do anything by halves! :)

One of the most beautiful women I've ever met was half Italian and half Japanese.

Her husband described her as having eyes of cornflower blue. Clear, light olive skin. Hair that could be strands of pure jet. At rest, the serenity of a geisha. In action, the passion of a Neapolitan fishwife ..... with a vocabulary to match! :D

Quote from: Ithoriel on 13 September 2022, 01:56:38 PMOne of the most beautiful women I've ever met was half Italian and half Japanese.

Her husband described her as having eyes of cornflower blue. Clear, light olive skin. Hair that could be strands of pure jet. At rest, the serenity of a geisha. In action, the passion of a Neapolitan fishwife ..... with a vocabulary to match! :D

Probably an Elf then  :D

(https://scontent.fgba1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/305207880_509388617858758_5657807078443684845_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=v40lF6QlZkcAX88ORe5&_nc_ht=scontent.fgba1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-uiIIfsVwTSN-RNpbEzdlcHXXbC-dUl3nH_6qMZiwuiw&oe=63264352)

Watched episode 4 this evening and again, enjoyed it very much. Not as slow as the previous one and some nice hints (to my mind at least) of the Dwarves delving too deep and 'releasing' the Balrog. Of course I could be completely wrong!

Dwarves; as Tolkien intended.

Quote(https://scontent.fgba1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/305207880_509388617858758_5657807078443684845_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=v40lF6QlZkcAX88ORe5&_nc_ht=scontent.fgba1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-uiIIfsVwTSN-RNpbEzdlcHXXbC-dUl3nH_6qMZiwuiw&oe=63264352)

Of critics.  (85% for House of the Dragon)

Of the audience - 39%  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D (85% for House of the Dragon)

3.0 out of 5 on AMAZON! Though of course, they did block reviews for a few days.

2.9 out of 10 on Metacritic (4.7 for House of the Dragon)

6.9 out of 10 on IMDB with 31% giving it a 10 and 23% a 1. (8.7 for House of the Dragon)



Think it's a bit disingenuous to show just the one critics' score. Reviews seem to be extreme - either very favourable or very poor. House of the Dragon is whupping it on a range of metrics.




Don't bother posting about review bombing. That would just be a bore.

Quote from: fsn on 10 September 2022, 05:50:01 PMI'm withdrawing from this thread. My point remains that if you like the show, enjoy it.

Wise words indeed.

Just watched episode 4 and agree with Steve.
I don't really care if great swaths of people don't like it or that many seem to desire that it fails. I like it.

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 16 September 2022, 08:35:03 PMDwarves; as Tolkien intended.

I always thought that was rather good

Who knew that Dwarf Metal was a thing?

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 16 September 2022, 10:57:09 PMWise words indeed.

Indeed, and it was my intention, but sometimes egregious assertions need to be countered.

Quote from: fsn on 17 September 2022, 07:11:23 AMIndeed, and it was my intention, but sometimes egregious assertions need to be countered.

If you find one let me know and we can kill it together. It will be just  like one of  those cop buddy movies only featuring middle-aged men arguing over TV shows featuring goblins

Spoiler alert


The TV show apparently has female Orcs, yet another example of the evil of post-modernist  Frankfurt  School cultural marxism.

QuoteI always thought that was rather good

Seldom does a lighthearted song capture the essence of a mythical people as well as this one.


My RPG mastering pal in Singapore runs mega-dungeon sessions at a club.
Multiple parties are attempting to re-capture a fallen dwarven kingdom "under the mountains".
Some of his players are conversant with Tolkien's main works, others come from a more manga / anime background.
His 5 minute "Everything you need to know about Dwarves" intro' concludes with that video.

The song has also been covered by Italian metal band Wind Rose who draw heavily from Tolkien and similar for their material and costume.

QuoteWise words indeed.

Hmmm ... and yet you do not refute my post. "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates.


To recap my position before I again retire from this thread.

RoP does not (IMHO) reflect Tolkein's work. It just uses some of the names, I point again at "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" not really being a Jane Austen work. For many authors this is fairly inconsequential, but I think authors who created a world (geography, history, bestiary, languages, bestiary) in as much detail as Tolkein are rare and should be treated with respect. 

The main character Galadriel is not a Galadriel I recognise from LOTR. She is as antithetical as a pacifist Conan or a muggle Harry Potter.

I found the episode that I watched to be extremely boring although pretty. Dialogue was a problem. "But the ship has a secret. For unlike the stone, her gaze is not downward but up. Fixed upon the light that guides her, whispering of grander things than darkness ever knew."

Hobbits Harfoots seem to be a race of imbeciles.


But I say again "you like it, you watch it." Take the Tolkein name off it and do what you please, but please don't try and make it appear to be more popular than it is.   

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 17 September 2022, 07:34:56 AMSpoiler alert
The TV show apparently has female Orcs, yet another example of the evil of post-modernist  Frankfurt  School cultural marxism.

"Female Orcs exist in Middle Earth. Their existence was confirmed in the Munby letter sold at an auction in 2002. Mr, Tolkiens declared to Mrs. Munby that the female Orcs indeed exist in the The Lord of the Rings universe. They were not very prominent in the whole narrative as they did not travel often or went to wars." http://[https://fictionhorizon.com/are-there-female-orcs-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/

Also - biology.

QuoteHmmm ... and yet you do not refute my post. "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates.

I have no idea why you would think I had slandered you and in any case, the Socrates quote is false.

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/socrates-slander-becomes-the-tool-of-the-loser-quote-is-false/ (https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/socrates-slander-becomes-the-tool-of-the-loser-quote-is-false/)

I would have more sympathy for your position on respect for Tolkien's work if you weren't a fan of Peter Jackson's Middle Earth which is anything but respectful to its source material.  I would once again direct you to his money-grubbing exploitation of the Hobbit with its sandworms and the insertion of a love triangle story. However, at least there was no "forced diversity" to upset people of a certain mindset.

I have never claimed the series is massively popular only that it is liked by some people which is something on which you appear to agree with me. I am also pretty sure Socrates would recognise a straw man argument, particularly when it is so ineptly deployed.

Diggy Diggy Hole - a rather catchy little number  8)


Even it it is a bit Boaty McBoatface in the naming stakes!

QuoteI have no idea why you would think I had slandered you and in any case, the Socrates quote is false.

Thank you. I shall stop using that one. What I was getting at is that you posted my withdrawal from the thread rather than dealing with the substance of my post. 

QuoteI would have more sympathy for your position on respect for Tolkien's work if you weren't a fan of Peter Jackson's Middle Earth which is anything but respectful to its source material.

What makes you think I'm a fan of Peter Jackson? All I did was cite the difference between his aims and the RoP as evidenced by Lenny Henry's rather arrogant comment. I have never watched a Peter Jackson film. I have read the books and listened to the BBC radio series. 

QuoteHowever, at least there was no "forced diversity" to upset people of a certain mindset.

By that you mean Tolkien fans, I trust? As for "forced diversity" I give you California tax law and Oscar Diversity Quotas.
https://gamerant.com/gavin-newsom-california-diversity-rules-film-tv-tax-incentive/
 (https://gamerant.com/gavin-newsom-california-diversity-rules-film-tv-tax-incentive/)
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/movies/oscars-best-picture-diversity.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/movies/oscars-best-picture-diversity.html)

QuoteI have never claimed the series is massively popular only that it is liked by some people which is something on which you appear to agree with me.

Posting a single 83% rating score would seem to indicate that you think the show is massively popular.   

QuoteI am also pretty sure Socrates would recognise a straw man argument, particularly when it is so ineptly deployed.

It's OK. I'm sure you'll get better at it.

Anyway. I suggest we stop this bickering. I'm bored and won't post on this again unless i feel personally attacked or there is some other gross misrepresentation. 

Back to The Rings of Power . . .

Just caught up with the latest episode - frankly, the whole thing is just boring.

Watched the first episode of House of the Dragon, and so far it's far better than R.O.P

We call them both Game of Hobbits.

Quote from: FierceKitty on 23 September 2022, 10:08:12 AMWe call them both Game of Hobbits.

Is that allowed given that Peter Dinklage is a Dwarf?

So you could be offending him on two counts

1 By referring to him as a hobbit instead of a dwarf
2 Calling it Game of Hobbits because it a person of diminutive stature in it  :)

RoP is slow and as our daughter said last week, she is struggling to care about any of the characters. Still we find it easy watching.

GoT has been a slow start and has only just got interesting for us (episode 4 I think).

Both are OK but neither (currently) can compare to the original GoT (exluding the dreadful final series).

Quote from: FierceKitty on 23 September 2022, 10:08:12 AMWe call them both Game of Hobbits.

GoT is obviously an influence- although in line with Tolkienesque ambience there doesn't seem to be any nudity in RoP

The gratuitous lack of nudity is one of the reasons why we've given up RoP.

Quote from: FierceKitty on 23 September 2022, 01:40:02 PMThe gratuitous lack of nudity is one of the reasons why we've given up RoP.

Well, I do understand. In recent yearsI have been more Conan than LotR

Just finished episode 5 of RoP and I have to say I'm still enjoying it. I'm not sure I care about the characters but I do find myself caring about the story.

I managed to see episode one of House of the Dragon and I'm afraid and was reminded of Ian McShane's  description of it's progenitor,GoT, as "only tits and dragons." Can't say it grabbed me. Maybe I'm still scarred by Series 7 & 8 of GoT.

Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 September 2022, 02:05:45 PMI managed to see episode one of House of the Dragon and I'm afraid and was reminded of Ian McShane's  description of it's progenitor,GoT, as "only tits and dragons." Can't say it grabbed me. Maybe I'm still scarred by Series 7 & 8 of GoT.

I would argue that Lovejoy would have been massively improved by more tits and dragons,

QuoteI would argue that Lovejoy would have been massively improved by more tits and dragons

Purhaps.....

But I really think Ian McShane had his Lovejoy character down pat, he just played it so naturally.

Unfortunately in the end he didn't get together with the delightful Lady Jane, despite their long freindship. Instead she ended up as a housekeeper in a large country house  ;) 

As for the dragons....well they would probably be a bit big to fit in Eric's sidecar and may have sindged Tinker's hair?  :-\     

To be honest, I'd all but forgotten about Lovejoy. I associate Ian McShane more with Swearengen in Deadwood.

It's been a while since Lovejoy was made (mid 80's to early 90's?) and the cast have certainly been kept busy since then in a veriety of roles.

Took me about 3 episodes of Downton to realise that Lady Jane had aged gracefully into Mrs Hughes  :-[

Anyway to get back on track I have been able to see the first two episodes of RoP - I quite like it (apart from anything else you can try to work out which locations in NZ they used  ;D ) but I can certainly see why it doesn't tick everyones boxes. 

Watched episode 5 of ROP. But found content and storyline so poor I will not be watching episode 6.

Watched the latest episode last night and sorry to say, it was really, really poor, until about the last 5 minutes and how Mount Doom was created. Most of the time, aside from trying not to fall asleep, we were spotting Biblical references, The Seven Samurai ones etc. Will stick with it for a bit but by God does it need to improve though.

QuoteWatched the latest episode last night and sorry to say, it was really, really poor, until about the last 5 minutes . . .

Exactly what I thought. Only two more to go (grits teeth).

Quote from: Raider4 on 01 October 2022, 07:31:48 AMExactly what I thought. Only two more to go (grits teeth).

Errr ... sorry. There are five series planned, so you've potentially got 42 more episodes to watch?  :D

Spreading gloom and despondency again Nobby ?

Its becoming a standard sword and sorcery story. ( yes i know it was the first)
Hero has plot armour and no one just kills the baddie first time.
Major story items get lost, people have time to chat during vicious hand to hand combat
Can not see it making 3 series let alone 5

Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 01 October 2022, 10:00:51 AMSpreading gloom and despondency again Nobby ?

Just stating the facts.  :D

If I'm being optimistic (which is territory I don't normally stray into) I can hope that Amazon can look at series 1 and so improve series 2 onwards. 

The production values are superb, it's just that the story lines are poor and the plots are all over the place. I hope they tighten things up considerably for series 2 too.

Quote from: Steve J on 01 October 2022, 03:56:02 PMThe production values are superb, it's just that the story lines are poor and the plots are all over the place. I hope they tighten things up considerably for series 2 too.

I'm actually wondering if they will scrub it. American TV is notorious for scrapping things if the ratings and reviews are not good.

We have been wondering whether they will do this too, ditto with the Wheel of Time, as neither seem to have been generally well received.

QuoteWe have been wondering whether they will do this too, ditto with the Wheel of Time, as neither seem to have been generally well received.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time_(TV_series)): "The series was renewed for a second season in May 2021, before the series premiered. In July 2022, ahead of the second-season premiere, the series was renewed for a third season."


And for The Rings of Power (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings:_The_Rings_of_Power): "Amazon moved production for future seasons to the United Kingdom, where filming for the second season is expected to begin in October 2022."

Well, I'm still enjoying it so I hope it runs and runs.

Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 October 2022, 12:55:12 AMWell, I'm still enjoying it so I hope it runs and runs.

Me Too; to coin a phrase.

My main issue with it is similar to my problem with Game of Thrones, in that  on occasions uses too dark a screen

QuoteMe Too; to coin a phrase.

My main issue with it is similar to my problem with Game of Thrones, in that  on occasions uses too dark a screen

I had the same problem with most of the Netflix offerings.  Turned out my so called "smart" Samsung TV has loads of "ambient", "eco" and "picture mode" settings that I had to tinker with for the streaming sites and then reset for normal freeview type TV.  Such is progress.....

I don't stream or buy into TV shows. I wait until something comes out as DVD set.
Less than impressed with RoP trailers... will wait.

Never had any problems with what many see as 'too dark' screens... sometimes 'meant' to be that way. But, DVDs... streaming might be different.

QuoteMy main issue with it is . . . on occasions uses too dark a screen

Ooh, yes, I get that with loads of things on Netflix or Amazon.


Tried to watch "Outer Range" - couldn't see a bloody thing for what seemed like 10 minutes so just gave up.


Just seen DecemDave's post - maybe I need to tinker with settings just for streaming then.

Our TV is left on an eco setting to reduce power consumption, but for some programmes it is too dark for usre.

I watch on my PC so can easily adjust settings, which often helps with the "too dark" segments.

Quotehow Mount Doom was created. M.

It was just an epic failure by Jacob Rees-Mogg with his fracking activities

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/LaT3nufwa0VcYNxOkC.9UA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTMyMA--/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/sS3Fj4i0hTsDNinUpCLHdw--~B/aD00MDA7dz04MDA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_av_club_265/4b96bd55135080562542822ac85b5277)

Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 October 2022, 12:55:12 AMWell, I'm still enjoying it so I hope it runs and runs.

:-bd

I stuck with it to the end. Not changed my opinion - was dull, slow & mostly boring. Probably would have given up if it did not have the LotR name attached.

Almost certainly won't see any further series - can't see the household funding Amazon Prime for too much longer.

Finally caught up with the last episode and have to say I've enjoyed the series.

Not sure what the detractors were expecting. Car chases and explosions? Babes in bikinis? Incest and dragons? Tolkein's work doesn't exactly zip along. I liked the pace of the thing and felt it suited the source.

I'd gladly take several more series of the same.

Spectacular scenery and sets, well lit and shot, framing actors who (with the possible exception of Lenny Henry, who hammed it up a bit for my taste) gave excellent performances.

Bring on the Balrogs! :)

Quote from: Ithoriel on 16 October 2022, 05:55:43 PMFinally caught up with the last episode and have to say I've enjoyed the series.

Not sure what the detractors were expecting. Car chases and explosions? Babes in bikinis? Incest and dragons? Tolkein's work doesn't exactly zip along. I liked the pace of the thing and felt it suited the source.

I'd gladly take several more series of the same.

Spectacular scenery and sets, well lit and shot, framing actors who (with the possible exception of Lenny Henry, who hammed it up a bit for my taste) gave excellent performances.

Bring on the Balrogs! :)

I am glad you enjoyed it Ithoriel.

From reading some articles about the show it seems it is very much "Marmite". People either love it or hate it, with  the vast majority of the reviews giving it either minimum or maximum points. With most of the detractors being Tolkien fans.

After looking forward to it with anticipation, I was hugely disappointed in the storyline and the way the races and characters were depicted, I do not think it portrayed them as Tolkien's writings describe them. I shall not be watching the next series.

But it would be a boring world if we all like the same thing.

QuoteBut it would be a boring world if we all like the same thing.

It would indeed.

Though I have to say that having read "Lord of the Rings" three times cover-to-cover and the Silmarillion twice, not to mention dipping in to both on many occasions, I can't say anything in the series really jarred.

The Elves are complacent, the Numenoreans are arrogant and wilful, the Dwarves are thrawn, Men are victims, villains and heroes in equal measure, the Harfoots are nomadic gatherers - exactly the sort of lifestyle that lead real world people  to eventually settle as farmers as the Hobbits do - and are saved from Ewok levels of cutesy by Nori and Poppy IMHO.

The multiracial aspect of the casting is something I'm happy to see.

Things like Dwarven women not having beards is understandable given the series is not aimed solely at Tolkien nerds like me and some details aren't worth the bother of explaining to a wider audience.

But ... there are things that grind my gears that few others care about!

To shift genres to Star Trek ... IDIC!


Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

QuoteFinally caught up with the last episode and have to say I've enjoyed the series.

Just watch the finale myself and agree.

I liked the feints and the denouements and what now appears a firm way forward.

Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
    or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Have the gates of death been shown to you?
    Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know all this

I know, I know. I wasn't going to post on this thread any more, but I was struck by this headline from the Guardian, and then I watched the last two episodes, and wished I hadn't. 

Now it's over, let's come out and say it: The Rings of Power was a stinker - the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/oct/17/now-its-over-lets-come-out-and-say-it-the-rings-of-power-was-a-stinker (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/oct/17/now-its-over-lets-come-out-and-say-it-the-rings-of-power-was-a-stinker)

No turkey, however bloated and stupid, could ever be big enough to convey the mesmerising awfulness of Amazon's billion dollar Tolkien epic - The Mail
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11164965/CHRISTOPHER-STEVENS-reviews-Lord-Rings-Rings-Power.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11164965/CHRISTOPHER-STEVENS-reviews-Lord-Rings-Rings-Power.html)

What a muddle Amazon has made of Middle-earth. The series was too slow, the finale too rushed, the suspense nonexistent - Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio/2022/10/14/rings-of-power-series-review-what-a-muddle-amazon-has-made-of-middle-earth/ (https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio/2022/10/14/rings-of-power-series-review-what-a-muddle-amazon-has-made-of-middle-earth/)

(https://preview.redd.it/how-could-galadriel-survive-to-spoiler-from-episode-6-v0-nip53dh5x3r91.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=d05197793227506dfb66e50d0262a1ca4c21b935) Galadriel after being hit by a volcano

(https://images.theconversation.com/files/391948/original/file-20210326-15-8x0dtd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip) Citizens of Pompeii after being hit with a volcano



(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeAKmXeXgAIavGm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) Why don't Pendraken do figures in this fighting pose?

Quote(https://preview.redd.it/how-could-galadriel-survive-to-spoiler-from-episode-6-v0-nip53dh5x3r91.png?width=1400&format=png&auto=webp&s=d05197793227506dfb66e50d0262a1ca4c21b935) Galadriel after being hit by a volcano


(https://images.theconversation.com/files/391948/original/file-20210326-15-8x0dtd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip) Citizens of Pompeii after being hit with a volcano



(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeAKmXeXgAIavGm?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) Why don't Pendraken do figures in this fighting pose?

1. Fantasy elf
2. Reality
3. Goodness knows!

Those casts in Pompeii are some of the most upsetting things I've seen.

QuoteThose casts in Pompeii are some of the most upsetting things I've seen.

Seen worse but only in photos. As a pre-teen kid, library book had pic of Afrika Korps tank commander being 'extracted' from a brewup. Then the Gulf War 1 pic of similar casualty. Plus ACW / WW1 skeletons.... or German squashed flat on WW2 road. Some Mother's sons.
Puts toy soldiers in perspective... but...

Real life... dead Mother... and tried to resuscitate Grandma as a teen.... but somehow 'unreal'. Most horrific thing was a roadkill feral cat found on a country lane.... will never forget expression. Went back and buried it.

Harry R. Truman

There's a difference between being caught in the ash cloud (image 1) and being engulfed by a pyroclastic flow (image 2).

(https://i0.wp.com/highoncinemaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Rings-of-Power-Episode-6-Review-Mount-Udun-Exploding-Volcano.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1)

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

Well they've only made the first three so far, so plenty more to come!!!  ;)

being an eldameldor I really like the series myself :-bd

Just remember that this is a fantasy world, so the physics might be a bit different to "real world" situations. 

Eh, she's a proper Kin of Feanor, only ennui or direct enemy action from powerful entities can kill her. Rage and spite carry her forwards until she fades, or actually apologises and passes back to the West in contrition.

Not that that millenia long arc ending in her willingly seeing the Light via Frodo, and giving up her Ring and empire of ashes, and passing to the West seems to have made it into Rings, but hey.

It was visually impressive, and there's lots of shiny, and I'd assumed it would bear little relation to Tolkiens canon or themes, but it felt... empty? My t'other half watched a few episodes as well and just found it underwhelming.

Given they spent enough on it to buy about half the countries in the world, you;d think it'd be solid on it's own merits even if it just stole some names but it just... slid right off.

Mind you current TV media is bad for that anyway, the recent Wheel of Time adaptation showed good promise (despite liberties with plot, characters, setting etc), then they just had to hit the ruin button towards the end :D

Quote(https://i0.wp.com/highoncinemaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Lord-of-the-Rings-The-Rings-of-Power-Episode-6-Review-Mount-Udun-Exploding-Volcano.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1)

A run of the mill Rammstein concert.

Feuer Frei!

:) :) :)

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 23 November 2022, 10:21:51 AMA run of the mill Rammstein concert.

(https://www.sseaudio.com/write/image/2019%20News/2019-12-23%20Rammstein%20Tours%20Europe/Rammstein_665_1.jpg)

I see what you mean.  ;D  ;D  ;D

Ahhhhh brings back memories! The days of being able to go to gigs :)

Rammstein did put on an excellent show!

Apparently,Public Enemy have reformed and are planning a concept album based on the 'Rings of Power';it will be called 'Fear of a Black Hobbit'

QuoteA run of the mill Rammstein concert.

Having watched the first series of the 'Wheel of Time' and sort of found it OK, we gave Series Two a go. Well we just didn't engage with it at all and even SWMBO, who will watch paint dry, spent more time sorting out school passwords on her laptop than watching it!

Quote from: Steve J on 05 September 2023, 09:48:07 AMHaving watched the first series of the 'Wheel of Time' and sort of found it OK, we gave Series Two a go. Well we just didn't engage with it at all and even SWMBO, who will watch paint dry, spent more time sorting out school passwords on her laptop than watching it!

I've watched the first episode. It ain't the books, but... I found it... not awful?

I have enjoyed "Wheel of Time" much more than "The Rings of power". Binged watched the first three in series two.

Quotebut... I found it... not awful?

It's not bad, visually well done, but we just did engage with it at all, that's the problem :( .

Quote from: Steve J on 06 September 2023, 08:38:54 PMIt's not bad, visually well done, but we just did engage with it at all, that's the problem :( .

Yah, it's... slow. And as they're off piste fron the books they're juggling a lot of new Intro and reminder stuff.

Much like Orcs I found it far better than RoP tho!