Having now watched the videos fsn posted I'd like to say that I don't accept any of the points Just Some Guy raises.

If he, and you dear readers, don't like it, don't watch it.

If you do like it, then I'm with you. May it continue to entertain us.

QuoteHaving now watched the videos fsn posted I'd like to say that I don't accept any of the points Just Some Guy raises.

If he, and you dear readers, don't like it, don't watch it.

If you do like it, then I'm with you. May it continue to entertain us.

+1 Ithoriel

If not liking it purhaps a quick trip to Mount Doom to cast your AP device into the abyss is in order?   

'Forced Diversity'...in other words, 'Quotas'... is Racism / Sexism under a different flag. But some will NEVER see it as such. Too much 'investment' in their own argument. Most people do not  'want' ANY of it... just a good production... but some keep pushing... and others react. Let good actors or writers be... if a role is 'suitable'...it will be! Bad writing or casting...is just BAD.

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 11 September 2022, 10:17:04 AM'Forced Diversity'...in other words, 'Quotas'... is Racism / Sexism under a different flag.

So you have evidence that there was a quota system involved in the hiring of actors for "Rings of Power"  !

Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 September 2022, 10:06:35 PMHaving now watched the videos fsn posted I'd like to say that I don't accept any of the points Just Some Guy raises.

If he, and you dear readers, don't like it, don't watch it.

If you do like it, then I'm with you. May it continue to entertain us.

That is eminently sensible advice

Sadly, YouTube has managed to create an industry out of what might be termed toxic fandom and knocking copy. I used to think that the Star Wars were the worst of the bunch but I am now beginning to have doubts on that.

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 11 September 2022, 11:02:01 AMSo you have evidence that there was a quota system involved in the hiring of actors for "Rings of Power"

I have not yet watched , so no opinion as yet! If there was... no-one would say. But, I have read of actors of colour ... some good... stridently complaining of lack of 'lead' roles in years gone by... perhaps because there WERE few such jobs. Then recently, 'casting' has gone all over the place. They want to be 'Leads', so directors are shoving them in wherever they can!
Sometimes it can work well... but sometimes casting just 'jars', detracting from the production.
We Cannot know just how many 'knights or Nobles' may have had coloured ancestry... but I very much doubt that there would have been many. Sometimes, it can be made to fit... 'Porthos' In BBC 'Musketeers', jarred... but was made to work. Certainly, in Roman period, there would have been a very mixed bunch of Officer classes... and recently, British Empire has been shown to have many more.  'coloured' Officers than previously thought.
But simply casting to employ and 'access' audiences... just ain't right. Back in 70s there was a whole crop of movies with Coloured leads... good movies...but, audiences called them...(I cannot remember the word!)... but derogatory! Because, at the time, 'Black' was the New thing. 'Blacksploitation'?
If a role works... then ok... but not TOO many leads. Actor has to fit Role, not Role has to fit actor available.

I really don't understand this obsession with the race and gender of actors. All I want is someone who can deliver the lines with conviction. If Shakespeare was OK with a male Ophelia why baulk at a female Hamlet? If it was OK for white men in make-up to play Othello, why wouldn't it be OK for Desdemona to be Japanese or African-American, or whatever?

As for "Tolkein's Middle Earth was white European" well, yes it was, and shame on him for that but he was a product of white male-centric milieu and can be forgiven a little for that.

But to perpetuate that as though it is a good thing is, in my eyes, shameful. It's a big wide world out there full of interesting and resourceful people lets see as wide a spectrum of them as we can.

To swap genres, I'm with Gene Rodenberry's Vulcans, IDIC - Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

Live long and prosper!

I haven't watch this new Tolkien 'knock-off' yet but I've been reading all this with a mixture of exasperation and resignation.  It seems to me that as the films in question are fantasy, you can cast characters of any ethnicity you like.  The trouble with Tolkien is that his stories, albeit not set in any real world, have established traditions and there is nothing wrong with that at all.  But, what it means, it seems to me, is that the priority for casting ought to conform to the established mythology, rather than ethnicity, gender or whatever, simply to meet the requirements of some artificial diversity agenda.  The characters ought to makes sense and if they don't it is inevitable, I think, that they will attract adverse comment for all kinds of reasons, some legitimate, others not so much.  Aspiring to inclusivity and diversity can be a good thing sometimes, but often it just leads to ridicule, as it did when a black actress was cast as Anne Boleyn, but that was portraying events in a real world setting, not fantasy, and it made no sense from any angle. 

I can understand people not liking RoP and I can even understand them having problems with the depiction of some of the characters by what is now popularly known as people of colour. What I cannot understand for the life of me is how it is acceptable to harass the actors involved, if I did such a thing I would feel I had failed as a human being.

I have just finished watching the third episode, and reading the various comments here. I have not watched the you tube clips.

I was not surprised with the inclusion of various ethinicities in the show. It is part of modern society, I just feel that they could have been made more believable. Races in general consist of mainly of people with similar looks, with some inclusion of other races. The mix seems almost to be a shotgun effect.

To my mind it would have made more sense to make the majority of characters of each of the races of similar ethnicity, with A number of mixed heritage in each race.  They are after all defined in Tolkien as races not countries.

I fully understand Steve's very valid point that his daughter sees people that look like her, but why not make an entire race in the story of African heritage.

That said it is a Fantasy/mythical adventure and whatever shade characters are should not spoil the telling of a story (in Avatar they are blue with tails and this seems to be accepted by those watching it)


My biggest problem is the way the characters are portrayed. The Harfoots seem to be very simpletons

The giant that crash landed I believe is supposed to be Maiar (probably Gandalf) but appears to be a half wit.

Galadriel is supposed to be Regal, self controlled and wise, not the rebel she is portrayed as. Not someone stupid enough to jump off ship in the middle of a huge ocean.

But as FSN says "if you don't like it, don't watch it"

For me the jury is still out.

I fully understand Steve's very valid point that his daughter sees people that look like her, but why not make an entire race in the story of African heritage.

I always thought the Southrons fitted that description but perhaps they were just supposed to be Latins.

I have sometimes wondered why... given the potentially Massive 'Audience' Draw...no movie / TV makers have ever explored 'Tribal' Africa? Yes, 'Roots' Or 'Zulu'... but that is relatively late in history of the continent... and goes for the Slavery/ Imperialism perspective.

No written histories to my knowledge... but 'lore' and 'legends' must be there? Potential 'Dynasties', Tribal conflict or 'Fantasy Occult' elements? 'Historical' would be best... but...

 If TV series such as 'Vikings' can provide good 'a-historical' drama... given the numbers of good coloured actors... why not?

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 12 September 2022, 01:32:14 AMI have sometimes wondered why... given the potentially Massive 'Audience' Draw...no movie / TV makers have ever explored 'Tribal' Africa? Yes, 'Roots' Or 'Zulu'... but that is relatively late in history of the continent... and goes for the Slavery/ Imperialism perspective.

No written histories to my knowledge... but 'lore' and 'legends' must be there? Potential 'Dynasties', Tribal conflict or 'Fantasy Occult' elements? 'Historical' would be best... but...

 If TV series such as 'Vikings' can provide good 'a-historical' drama... given the numbers of good coloured actors... why not?

Good point. I am not familiar with African History/ mythology but I am sure there must be something more of interest there than the stuff from recent history.

I do wonder how people would feel though if they cast a white actor as Shaka in the spirit of inclusion?

To say that Tolkien's Middle Earth was all 'white European' is to ignore the facts behind the inspirations for Tolkien, who was (at his heart) a 'Dark Ages' scholar.

If you accept that Orcs were Hunnic types, Southron the equivalent of Nubian Africans, Numenorians/Gondor are Byzantines - and that Rohirrim were inspired by Sarmatians - you already have a fair mix of associated or implied ethnicity.

My original comments around racial stereotypes was not actually about race or colour or gender at all.
They were about the use of accents. Hobbits being depicted in an unnecessary way using rural UK or Irish accents and Dwarves Scottish. Surely in Middle Earth you can tell a Hobbit from a man/elf/dwarf/ork without the need to stereotype them with certain accents.

For the record - personally I have no issues at all with dark skinned or east asian elves/dwarves etc.
And Tolkien also had some very strong female roles in his books, especially in the Silmarillion. The fact that the film and this series has chosen to broaden out that aspect doesn't demine it at all IMHO - in fact it enhances it. As long as they are all good actors and the scripting is good and (most of all for me) the continuity is good - along side the visual effects - which in this case are as least as good as the films - I'm a happy watcher.

And the series is growing on me ...

Mark

We watched the third episode and it was a bit slow, but still we are very much enjoying.