Field defences p84.  AFV Pits and Vehicle Scrapes seem to give the same benefits to AFVs, so why spend the additional 5 points for a pit?  Or is there some explanatory text missing, which would make the difference between these types of defences much clearer?

Quote from: Superscribe on 30 July 2022, 06:59:30 PMArtillery Barrage p54 2nd para states 'Then reduce the number of unsaved hits by 50% rolling for saves on the remaining hits as normal."  If hits are reduced by 50% before saves are thrown then they cant be 'unsaved ' hits!

> I can see your point - the removal of the word 'unsaved' makes things clearer. The intention is that the number of hits are reduced by 50% ahead of any saves thrown being attempted.

Should you reduce the number of hits by 50% before saves are thrown, or should saves be thrown first then reduce unsaved hits by 50%?

I suggest this rule needs come clarification

Thoughts above (in-line) as usual Chris - thanks

Quote from: Superscribe on 30 July 2022, 07:02:51 PMField defences p84.  AFV Pits and Vehicle Scrapes seem to give the same benefits to AFVs, so why spend the additional 5 points for a pit?  Or is there some explanatory text missing, which would make the difference between these types of defences much clearer?

Let me double-check Chris & I'll get back to you on that one 

Quote from: sultanbev on 28 July 2022, 10:55:56 PMI would treat AVLB as being able to lay a bridge in a single successful activation. As long as they are touching the obstacle being crossed, which shouldn't be more than a model length wide. So in a good run of activations, the AVLB could drive up to the stream, then lay the bridge, then drive across it in 3 activations all in one turn.

A 5cm river is 100m, so a big no-no, but if the scenario/map involves streams, blown bridges or cratered roads, then an AVLB would be able to cross it quickly in relative terms.

Engineers on foot building bridges, would, as stated, be out of the remit of a normal battle. "Overnight" seems to be the normal historical build time of a 100m+ wide pontoon bridge.

The truck mobile ribbon bridges and floating ferry arrangements still took a while to build, they just get into the water a lot quicker. In longer games they might be set up in sufficient time that CWC would need rules for them. Although the set up times might be quicker than a company of sappers unloading pontoons from horse-drawn wagons, that speed might not be any use if the crossing point hasn't been checked out first by engineer recce units.

Just looking at my Janes Logistics 1989, there appears some consistency.
Light pontoon bridges that can only allow infantry and motorcycles take half an hour to set up, up to 100m length
As examples of others:
Romanian 40t 142m pontoon takes 1 hour
Romanian 60t 80m pontoon takes 1.5 hours
Swiss 50t 100m pontoon takes 3 hours with 132 men, ie a company's worth
Swiss 30t 14m pontoon takes 1.5 hours with 33 men, ie a platoon's worth
Swiss 16t 10m pontoon takes 1.5 hours with 33 men
Russian 4t 88m pontoon takes 50 mins
Russian 8t 64m pontoon takes 50 mins
Russian 40t 64m pontoon takes 60 mins with 105 men, ie a company's worth
Russan 24t 88m pontoon takes 55 mins with 105 men
Russian PMP 60t 227m pontoon takes 30 mins with 82 men
Russian PMP 20t 389m pontoon takes 50 mins with 82 men
{THe PMP is an exceptional piece of kit)
Russian and Egyptian 1973 TPP pontoon 16t 500m takes 2.5 hours with 384 men
TPP 50t 265m pontoon takes 2 hours with 384 men
TPP 70t 205m pontoon takes 3 hours with 384 men
US aluminium floating footbridge 15 mins + 1 min per 4.5m of length
US Ribbon bridge 6.7m per minute

Interesting stuff Mark - helpful - thank you.

Quote from: Superscribe on 30 July 2022, 07:02:51 PMField defences p84.  AFV Pits and Vehicle Scrapes seem to give the same benefits to AFVs, so why spend the additional 5 points for a pit?  Or is there some explanatory text missing, which would make the difference between these types of defences much clearer?

Bit of checking back at my 'thinking' on this - AFV Pits are permeant (so can be reoccupied) - Vehicle scrapes are not able to be reoccupied. I'll clarify that in the errata Chris.

Quote from: Big Insect on 01 August 2022, 07:22:53 AMBit of checking back at my 'thinking' on this - AFV Pits are permeant (so can be reoccupied) - Vehicle scrapes are not able to be reoccupied.

Hi Mark. That would make sense, which means you could have scrapes as forward positions, which are given up as the enemy advances, and move back to alternative positions which are AFV pits. rgds Chris

That was the idea Chris.
Cheers
Mark

Is there a limit to where an Ambush can be located as the rules seem not to indicate any restrictions.  For example in an Attack/Defence scenario can the Attacked plan an Ambush within the Defence deployment area? 
If this is not permitted then something needs to be added to the rules to indicate ambush location limitations

Quote from: Superscribe on 03 August 2022, 10:17:22 PMIs there a limit to where an Ambush can be located as the rules seem not to indicate any restrictions.  For example in an Attack/Defence scenario can the Attacked plan an Ambush within the Defence deployment area? 
If this is not permitted then something needs to be added to the rules to indicate ambush location limitations

There are no restriction other than those relating to proximity and cover (see page 75).

Hi Mark

I think the recce spotting example on p32 is misleading as spotting of concealed troops is a reconnoitre action, for which you need to score according to distance from target area and nothing else i.e. as described in Reconnoitre rule 2nd para on p32 and NOT the factors they have been used in the example.

Regards

Chris

If you have mine ploughs fitted to lead tanks in say a Soviet Tank Bn, what happens when they enter a marked or hidden minefield? Having stopped at the edge as per the rules on p68, can they on a successful command throw, just carry on through the minefield clearing a 5cm wide route for other tanks to follow? What speed should they move through the minefield for each successful command throw? Full move, half move or 5cm/successful command throw?

I think there needs to be some clarification in the rules about use of mine ploughs, because it would be a little unrealistic for them to do what unsuppressed combat engineers have to do, namely only clear mines during the initiative phase, which would mean waiting until the next game turn before they can start using their ploughs....

Comments?

Mine plows are Mine clearance A - so they clear 5cm x 5cm sections in an Initiative move. Once they have made that move they stop moving but can be ordered to fire or retreat with a commanded order. (NB: you can of course Order them to move forward into minefield as a Commanded order, but as they are moving faster than the mine plow can operate effectively, they will take potential casualties from the minefield).

They cost 5pts to add to an AFV
1/3rd of the MBTs in a Soviet/Warsaw Pact Tank battalion would usually have them added (typically)

Some of the later lists have them specified in the Engineering sections - other earlier lists will be updated to include them.

Thanks
Mark

Hi Mark. Many thanks for update regarding use of ploughs; also noted  numbers in Soviet Tank Bn.
Regards Chris

Hi Mark

I am thinking of planning an all day game river assault scenario next month, with a wide river (30cm wide) but have a few questions as I cant find the answers in the rules (if the info is missing then it may need to be added to the rules and to unit stats tables).

What speed do the following move across a river:

- vehicles with the amphibious special ability, such as BMPs/BRDMs?
- assault boats  (and assume they are Transport (1) - limited to infantry or engineer unit)?
- ferries carrying vehicles?
- snorkelling tanks?

It is understood that all targets in water are classed as being in the open, but does the water affect the enemy's chance to hit targets while crossing water?

If the Bridgelayer special ability is given to a Sapper unit (at cost of 5pts, as page 91) they then have the ability to lay 5cm of bridge per Initiative Phase.  If 3x bridgelaying sapper units are used to build one pontoon bridge can they combine their efforts and build the bridge at a revised rate of 3 x 5cm = 15cm/Initiative Phase?

Regards

Chris

I'll leave the adjudication on how bridgelaying sappers are handled in game to Big Insect but I suspect in the real world there would be a law of diminishing returns in doing that.

In my time as a project manager I have had to explain to a number of bosses that just because one woman can produce a baby in nine months it doesn't follow that nine women can produce one in a month.

QuoteI am thinking of planning an all day game river assault scenario next month, with a wide river (30cm wide)

30cm = 600m, so given the data I posted about, it would take around 5 hours to build a pontoon bridge across that, using a battalion's worth of men, so about 9 stands

Most amphbious AFV and ferries do about 10kmh in water, so whatever the slowest vehicle is in the data charts, use that as the speed in water. A quick view of a few lists show 15cm as the slowest AFV.
Assault boats that outboard motors can do around 30kmh, so perhaps 30cm, but they can only carry foot troops and heavy weapons like MMG, recoiless rifles, ATGW teams.

Snorkelling tanks -
"Naturally, there are qualifiers to using a tank snorkel. The river depth at the crossing site cannot exceed five meters. The river bottom has to be suitable (sand, pebbles) so the tank will not get stuck; the river cannot be more than a kilometer in width; and the current has to be two meters/second or less. The entry and exit banks cannot exceed 25 degrees and the river bottom slope cannot exceed 15 degrees.7"

https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/issues/2019/Fall/4Grau19.pdf
How that fits into the game setting I'm not sure, but shows the route has to be thoroughly pre-checked out by engineer-recce units beforehand, so no snorkelling across a contested river battle.
More info here:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/engineer-river.htm

I suspect snorkelling speed to be even slower than amphibious vehicles.

Quote from: Superscribe on 05 August 2022, 10:52:41 PMIf 3x bridgelaying sapper units are used to build one pontoon bridge can they combine their efforts and build the bridge at a revised rate of 3 x 5cm = 15cm/Initiative Phase?

The answer should be no I would have thought, unless you are operating from both sides of the river at the same time.

Chris on snorkeling tanks it is now though that it was not a battlefeild tactic. Preparation would take about an hour, removal at least 20 mins on exit.

Ferries - order or initative move to load, order to move, not anticipating Mark but sugesst infantry pace and measure from near bank.

Amphips - order to entre, order to move, again I'd use infantry speed (experiance swimming 432 and Stalwart) and order to leave.

Assault boats, depends on powered or not - we used 30HP outboards so say 20cm per move, rowed would be infantry pace again. Also order to board, order to disembark.

AFV bridgelayer initaive order to lay and may be used on same turn.

The timings Mark B has given are not for tactical bridges, would only be built once you had secured both banks.

Final note all armies hate assault river crossings as costly and complex operations.

QuoteHi Mark

I am thinking of planning an all day game river assault scenario next month, with a wide river (30cm wide) but have a few questions as I cant find the answers in the rules (if the info is missing then it may need to be added to the rules and to unit stats tables).

What speed do the following move across a river:

- vehicles with the amphibious special ability, such as BMPs/BRDMs?
> 10cm (Amphibious) in water or wetlands
- assault boats  (and assume they are Transport (1) - limited to infantry or engineer unit)?
> 30cm (Aquatic capability) - can only carry 1 x INF: designated unit - there are some stats in the US Vietnam list, but the (about to be published) Iranian & Iraqi list have not only assault boats but also hover-crafts (as does the Soviet Naval Infantry list)
- ferries carrying vehicles?
> 10cms - most military ferry units will not move that quickly over a short distance like 30cm
- snorkelling tanks?
> 5cm but Sultanbey's comments are correct - it is highly unlikely you'd be using snorkelling in an active hostile battlefield situation. Snorkelling is a good way to get armoured units across a river in your rear area, where bridges might not be strong enough to take their weight, but they would be very vulnerable in a close combat situation. I have used snorkelling Leopard IIs in a game, but it was vanity really, as I had the models available    ... in practice it would have taken far to long to prepare them to make the river crossing

It is understood that all targets in water are classed as being in the open, but does the water affect the enemy's chance to hit targets while crossing water?
> Yes, target are classified as being one profile less - so Average becomes Low. Most units cannot shoot when they are in Amphibious mode - unless they are specifically designed as amphibious assault vehicles.

If the Bridgelayer special ability is given to a Sapper unit (at cost of 5pts, as page 91) they then have the ability to lay 5cm of bridge per Initiative Phase.  If 3x bridgelaying sapper units are used to build one pontoon bridge can they combine their efforts and build the bridge at a revised rate of 3 x 5cm = 15cm/Initiative Phase?

> Itheriol's comments are a good example of the challenge here. I'd suggest you could have 2 Sapper units, one on each bank, working towards each other, but any more than that wouldn't work practically.

Regards

Chris

Answers in-line in bold above Chris.
Cheers
Mark

First off comments were by me, not Mark Bevis. Times on bridge building did it on an annual camp, both MGB and Bailey. could construct both in 3 hours, bailey taking much longer. We were using around 15 bodies for each and working from one side and it was a dry obsticle.

Snokeling tanks is much harder than it seems at first glance. Apart from the preparation time the river bed would often need prparation removing bolders etc. Then the entry and exit points need grading to ensure the slope isn't too steep. The tank has virtually no vision so keeping a straight line is very hard. Finally the vehicle will have limited traction as it has some bouyancy which means it's hard to steer.

Hi

Thanks for all the useful info and feedback about bridging etc. Noted about snorkelling tanks and building a pontoon bridge will be very difficult initially, until Soviets have created a bridgehead and engineers can then work from both banks.

Amphibious vehicles such as IFV with infantry on board will plainly be important.

The Soviets will have the Divisional Engineer Battalion with its pontoon bridging company, which besides being able to build a bridge, they can also build 3x 110 ton ferries, which enables them a simultaneous lift of nine medium tanks (three platoons). So, in CWC this would equate to a single 110 ton ferry able to carry a company of 3 tanks.  3x T-64 nose to tail need minimum length of 15cm of ferry to transport them. How many Initiative Phases would it take the engineer company to build this raft? Would it be 3 turns (3x 5cm)?

Once loaded with tanks the raft moving at 10cm would reach the opposite bank in 2 successful command throws and then tanks can exit the ferry on the 3rd successful command throw. Does that sound about right?