Strength and Honour Rules

Started by KeithS, 17 January 2022, 04:59:28 PM

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steve_holmes_11

Despite falling outside mu areas of interest, I do find this an interesting development.

The idea of a rules and figures range (or starter set) is something associated with the big companies like Games Workshop and Warlord Games.
It's commercially successful at their scale, and also popular with companies more adjacent to the boardgame market.


I wonder how it will play out with the Grognard generation.

I typically ask myself: How else can I use these figures if the rules don't work out?
At present Strength and Honour + 2mm appears to offer little answer to that, but time will tell.


The other possibility is to use the rules, but assemble units from groups of "traditional" WRG based figures.
Ancients gamers looking for the "next big thing" - especially a next big thing that hasn't been optimized for competition gaming  - may use that as their entry point.


KeithS

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 20 January 2022, 01:46:31 PMThe idea of a rules and figures range (or starter set) is something associated with the big companies like Games Workshop and Warlord Games.
It's commercially successful at their scale, and also popular with companies more adjacent to the boardgame market.


I'm not sure that it is quite so coordinated as GW or Warlord.  From listening to the blogs etc. my understanding is the author initially made his own figure groups out of modelling materials.   He was also talking to a variety of people about the rules and they have thought that this style of representing figures might be done commercially in various ways, for people who are less DIY inclined.

Of course, you could use Irregular (for example) 2mm figures, or I believe the rules allow you to go for larger scales although you increasingly run into the problem of a few figures representing very large formations.

At any rate I think that the idea grew more organically than some of GW or Warlord offerings, where the rules are more tailored to selling figures (or possibly vice versa).
I'll bring up the rest of the brigade.

hammurabi70

QuoteI'm not sure that it is quite so coordinated as GW or Warlord.  From listening to the blogs etc. my understanding is the author initially made his own figure groups out of modelling materials.  He was also talking to a variety of people about the rules and they have thought that this style of representing figures might be done commercially in various ways, for people who are less DIY inclined.

Of course, you could use Irregular (for example) 2mm figures, or I believe the rules allow you to go for larger scales although you increasingly run into the problem of a few figures representing very large formations.

At any rate I think that the idea grew more organically than some of GW or Warlord offerings, where the rules are more tailored to selling figures (or possibly vice versa).

If one base is supposed to be a Legion then it would seem you would be into DBAesque rules, as such an army would be 60,000 strong.  Cohort style would seem more sensible and give flexibility but would mean big armies would still have a lot of bases so perhaps not so good!

Ithoriel


QuoteIf one base is supposed to be a Legion then it would seem you would be into DBAesque rules, as such an army would be 60,000 strong.  Cohort style would seem more sensible and give flexibility but would mean big armies would still have a lot of bases so perhaps not so good!


In the one interview I've heard with the author he describes the drive to develop the rules being triggered by dissatisfaction with some elements of the DBA rules.

I can see me buying the rules, even though I may never play them, if initial reaction when released is sufficiently positive.
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Lardy Rich

Morning all.  I do apologise for rudely interrupting, but was a wee bit concerned about the Leni Riefenstahl comments.  "Strength & Honour" was a Roman military verbal salute.  The game's author/designer had his own working suggestion which was a bit bonkers, so we looked for another.  This was suggested by our old chum Henry Hyde who is, as we all know, the least fascist person around. 

It's funny how we have had a bit of push back since we started saying that the rules were for smaller scales, something I know Pete at Baccus has mentioned in the past.  Some people seem to have a very fixed idea about what constitutes a wargame; usually conforming with the games they play in the scale they prefer.

When it comes to 2mm being a bit odd, the good news is that you can play Strength & Honour in any scale, its just that the smaller scales give a better 'birds eye view' of a big army of tens of thousands of men. But that's just the authors own preference. Several companies started making figures based on the home made models Mark started using, and that's nice to see as it makes getting started much easier. However, this is not a big corporate attack on the hobby.  We haven't licensed the model production; we don't make a penny out of it, but they asked and we said 'yes' as it helps the gamers who were looking for models like Marks' ones but didn't feel like making their own.  As it happens, we are taking the game to Joy if Six in July and running a 6mm version there.  We also have a good few people preparing armies in 10mm.

Nobody is attempting to force anyone to play Strength & Honour in some 'weird' scale.  Indeed, nobody is attempting to force anyone to play the game at all if they don't fancy it.  To that end we are running a series of films on Lard TV which take you step by step on how to create an army and how to play a game.  People can then make an informed judgement about whether it is for them or not.

Fear not, the equilibrium of the world of wargaming is not under threat; it's just a set of rules that some people might well have a bit of fun with in hopefully challenging and enjoyable games.

Cheers

Richard

mollinary

Curious, when I read the title, it was not  Leni Riefenstahl that came to mind, but 'Gladiator' with Russell Crowe fist pumping his legionaries ( ooh er, matron!) before the big battle at the start. 

I shall buy them, as I love looking at new rules to see if they have any mechanisms I like. They'll have to be pretty good, however, for me to use them instead of Commands and Color's Epic or To the Strongest! 
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mmcv

I've been watching these rules with interest. Having experimented a bit with 2mm in the gunpowder era I do like the overall look you can achieve with formation blocks. Gives you a much more realistic overview of what they'd actually look like with a bit of a "gods eye view" on the army. You can actually make settlements looks like settlements, not just a building or two. Forests can actually be forests, etc. It's a different aesthetic from how a lot of people view wargaming, but a no less valid one, and perhaps one more familiar to the video games generations.

With ancients you can get a lot of milage out of a single base - in 2mm the difference between a Marian, Ceasarian and Early imperial legion is negligible and large blocks of cavalry or warband infantry can serve a wide range of theatres. I like the idea of playing the great general ordering the entire battle about rather than small representatives of what is happening. I enjoy the spectacle of larger figures too, but 2mm gives you the flexibility of kriegspiel style gaming while still allowing a real battle like aesthetic looking down on the field of battle.

Haven't watched the latest video in the series yet but looking forward to seeing how the rules develop. The time and cost investment in them is fairly low and if they don't work out there's no reason you can't use the same figures for other ancients games like To the Strongest or Hail Caesar.

I suspect whether you like or dislike the very small scales will come down to what you find interesting in the hobby. If you're more into the toy soldier aspects of it then of course this style won't be your thing, whereas if you're more into the history and grand tactical aspects of it then it can have a lot of appeal, and from what I've seen so far you could just as easily do it in larger scales. I think the recommended base sizes are 120mm frontage so you can fit a lot of figures on that in 6mm or 10mm and could have it set up as a cohort representing a legion for instance. In fact it would be feasible to do a 1:1 century at 10mm on that base size, it's more of an abstract representation then, but isn't that true of all wargaming unless you're doing 1:1 skirmishing!

I'm happy to see the very small scales getting a bit more exposure, will be interested to see if the rules are good, or if they encourage others to create rules at a similar level. Plus more figure ranges is always welcome!

mmcv


QuoteCurious, when I read the title, it was not  Leni Riefenstahl that came to mind, but 'Gladiator' with Russell Crowe fist pumping his legionaries ( ooh er, matron!) before the big battle at the start.
Same!

DecemDave

QuoteFear not, the equilibrium of the world of wargaming is not under threat

Well you are no fun at all then  :D   

Its been amazing to watch the anticipation build up on FB.  I will be pre-ordering and will defo use the top down pics to see if I should think about 10mm versions!   

DecemDave

Deep in the "bonus material" for Gladiator is an interview with Ridley Scott where he said he based his vision of Commodus's Rome on the gatherings of the well known fascist state previously mentioned. Hence the adoring crowds (well initially), the salutes, the architecture, the black clad Praetorians etc.

I find it difficult to imagine those on the receiving end of the republic/empires expansion regarding invading legions as liberators or even bringers of improvements in sanitation and roads.

Lights fuse and retires 200 paces...

Big Insect

Quote from: DecemDave on 06 April 2022, 11:15:11 AM... or even bringers of improvements in sanitation and roads...


Don't forget the education. Or the aqueducts ... ;D
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Gwydion

Not for one minute was I suggesting anyone involved with this set of rules is a Fascist or a Nazi.

However...
The name does have just a smidge of that turn of phrase beloved of what shall we say - robust Aryan collectivism?  :)
Triumph of the Will,
Blood and Honour,
Strength through Joy

Was it really used by Romans as a salutation?
(I'm guessing from above posts that it was used in 'Gladiator'? I must be the only wargamer alive who has never seen the film).

Anyway, no offence intended. The rules sound interesting and as I said above, shall certainly not judge them on scale of figure used as that seems irrelevant.

mmcv


QuoteWas it really used by Romans as a salutation?
Apparently, it was a battle cry particularly during the Augustine period (though I don't have any actual source for that beyond reading it on the internet somewhere so take that with a pinch of salt)

Gwydion

I couldn't find any evidence of it being a greeting (or a battle cry, though that sounds more plausible).

I did find a story that said Russell Crowe made it up for the film from a school motto, but again the provenance of that story is shaky as well.
Oh well.
Salve atque Vale!

Raider4

QuoteStrength through Joy
BMW used to use advertising slogans centered around the word 'joy', which I always thought was brave of them.

Ditto Audi, when they replaced the 80/90 range with the A4 ('proper' code for what we call the V-2).