Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Rules => Topic started by: KeithS on 17 January 2022, 04:59:28 PM

Title: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: KeithS on 17 January 2022, 04:59:28 PM
Is anyone thinking of giving the proposed Strength and Honour ancient rules a go, when they are published?  They sound to me quite interesting and a chance to play large scale encounters within a limited table space.  Not especially suited to Pendraken figures as the rules are intended for single base to represent a whole Roman legion or barbarian warband, so better suited to 2mm scale or less rather than 10mm figures.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 18 January 2022, 01:00:25 AM
I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with ancients rules, but have been known to cave in and buy a set.

I'm struggling more than usual to really see the appeal of Strength and Honour.
The pitch appears to be "Big battles", but unlike later eras, most campaigns have either one or zero big battles.
(I said most, so Alexander's campaign and Caesar's civil war do not constitute a majority).

Then there are the figures.
They certainly have a following among the playtest community, but lack much appeal to me.
OK I've not seen pikes or elephants yet, but hardly something to show off and impress your mates at the club.

two things tend to drive the spectacle at the very tiny end of the hobby.
Terrain, and large battlefield items.
There's certainly scope for terrain builders to have a field day with this.
Me with my grass mat and plastic trees - less so.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: sultanbev on 18 January 2022, 12:25:25 PM
One base to represent a whole Legion, would just look crap. The growing trend of representing bigger and bigger units with less and less figures is turning wargaming into draughts, and just puts me off and into writing my own rules.
Ancient battles are meant to be epic in visual style, with thousands of warriors all close together, like we see in Rome Total War computer games and some movies. People comment that even MeG has too many figures when to me it looks like a skirmish in a football field.

I'm currently working on an idea where 4 bases is 500 men approx, so a Roman cohort would be 4 bases, most other armies using decimal system would be 8 bases a unit. And at that scale, individual companies of skirmishers or elites would show up as a single base unit at least.

As for terrain, most ancient rules seem hell bent on removing it altogether, which in geological and anthropological terms is just plain wrong. With a world population of only 300-500 million, must of the terrain would either be wilderness (long grassy plains with natural ditches; pastoral woodland or scrub), or cultivated.

The other issue I don't know what to do about, is rules using the number of figures to represent troop types. Thus armies that were meant to be hordes of horse archers, eg Huns, Mongols, that should look overwhelming and intimidating, look weedy (and presumably don't sell well) because being predominantly skirmish horse they only use 2 figures to a base compared to say 3 or 4 for closer order troop types.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 18 January 2022, 01:37:55 PM
The Antonine Miniatures troop blocks from Warbases designed for the rules aren't entirely to my taste, being very basic, but they would be lightning fast to paint (Will would no doubt have an entire army  painted before breakfast!) and at 225 men per standard legionary block it's hard to fault the troop density.

https://warbases.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AM-LEG1.jpg
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: FierceKitty on 18 January 2022, 01:59:10 PM
I second Sultanbev's views, and say the same for medieval, pike-and-shot (esp. Japanese), and horse-and-musket.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: KeithS on 18 January 2022, 02:55:24 PM
Quote from: sultanbev on 18 January 2022, 12:25:25 PMOne base to represent a whole Legion, would just look crap. The growing trend of representing bigger and bigger units with less and less figures is turning wargaming into draughts, and just puts me off and into writing my own rules.

To be fair the idea with these rules is to avoid using less and less figures on a base but effectively to use a block divided into lots of individual figures with virtually no detail.  The idea is to use tiny blobs of colour to represent individuals among a large crowd, and the view to be as though you are seeing the battlefield from above about 1000 feet in the air. Have a look at the Antonine miniatures mentioned by Ithoriel, for the general effect.  Obviously not to everyone's taste, but there are some advantages, cheap, relatively quick to paint (as he points out), and crucially for me allowing large scale conflicts with very limited table space.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 18 January 2022, 05:54:11 PM
I can imagine using cards with top views of units printed on.
But the rules don't particularly grab me.

I suppose I'm growing fussy in my old age.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 18 January 2022, 06:08:55 PM
(https://warbases.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AM-LEG1.jpg)(https://warbases.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AM-AUX3.jpg)(https://warbases.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AM-ALA1-TEMP.jpg)(https://warbases.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AM-HOR3-TEMP.jpg)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 18 January 2022, 06:12:40 PM
The legions don't look bad.
I really cannot tell what is supposed to be happening with the HOR3 shapes.

I'm sure plenty of people will dash to be part of this "next big thing".

All I'm saying it that it doesn't tick enough of my green flags, and it ticks a few too many potential reds.
That, of course, is personal opinion; something that contributes to the breadth and vibrancy of our hobby.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 18 January 2022, 06:30:18 PM

QuoteThe legions don't look bad.
I really cannot tell what is supposed to be happening with the HOR3 shapes.

I'm sure plenty of people will dash to be part of this "next big thing".

All I'm saying it that it doesn't tick enough of my green flags, and it ticks a few too many potential reds.
That, of course, is personal opinion; something that contributes to the breadth and vibrancy of our hobby.


15 x 15 is an odd formation to use for a Roman Legionary cohort, 30x8 would look better to me - 60 x 8 would be ideal IMHO.

The barbarian formations are too blobby for my taste.

I'm sure plenty of people will dash to be part of this "next big teeny-tiny thing". - FIFY :)

I'm a fan of Oddzial Osmy's 3mm stuff but this is a "bridge too far for me."
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: fred. on 18 January 2022, 06:31:33 PM
They look like CPUs...
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Raider4 on 18 January 2022, 07:22:10 PM
QuoteThey look like CPUs...
Remind me of sticklebricks
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Stickle_bricks.jpg/624px-Stickle_bricks.jpg)

Not for me, I think.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Leon on 18 January 2022, 09:38:04 PM
We've been doing the moulding for the Antonine 2mm figures and they're quite fun little sculpts.  They're very small (obviously!) but you can make out things like horses and shield shapes, so you can discern Legionaries vs Auxiliaries vs Cavalry, etc.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 19 January 2022, 12:05:17 AM
A constructive suggestion.

The size and resolution of the photographs posted above look far better than the ones on the Warbases website.
The pictures on the Warbases website also take an eternity to load (at least on my computer).

Fixing both these issues could reach a more favourable audience.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 19 January 2022, 12:12:14 AM
AAnd a final thought for the night.

Most genius creations involve reaching out beyond what most think credible.
Whether Thandie Newton devising laws for gravity and motion, or Olivia DeHavilland building a bomber form mostly wood.


We are making judgements based on some teaser releases from the author and previews of game elements.
If, in a couple of years, we're all playing Strength and Honour (even the title gives me the third Reich shivers).
I'll be the first to ground my shield and declare "ego erravi".
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Gwydion on 19 January 2022, 12:51:16 AM
I was about to post earlier, then thought better of it, but changed my mind again - we seem to judging the rules on the figures rather than on the rules.

I have never heard of them until now I don't think - not on Facebook, no intention of ever being on Facebook, so only a few bits of info found so far.

I like the idea of large scale battles on small tables - have to see what they actually deliver before I can comment on the rules themselves.

Yeah, the name's a bit Leni Riefenstahl isn't it?
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: FierceKitty on 19 January 2022, 01:32:44 AM
Quote from: Gwydion on 19 January 2022, 12:51:16 AMYeah, the name's a bit Leni Riefenstahl isn't it?

 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: DecemDave on 19 January 2022, 08:42:44 AM
QuoteRemind me of sticklebricks
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Stickle_bricks.jpg/624px-Stickle_bricks.jpg)

Well found.  If some of those protruding side bits could be trimmed off, the rectangular and square ones could surely be painted to look like mass formations bayonets ready?  Anyone else remember the old hair-roller armies?  Might have to dig those out for the cavalry.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Leman on 19 January 2022, 12:31:23 PM
I think I've spotted an interesing dichotomy here. I don't like these therefore....... I like these therefore..... The rules exist, the figures exist so if you fancy the idea have a go, but if you don't then don't. Otherwise you end up sounding like me when I had a downer on fantasy and sci-fi games. Not for me but it doesn't make them wrong or bad. In fact my carping on about them just made me look a prat. Please don't fall into the same trap.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: KeithS on 19 January 2022, 01:11:57 PM
Quote from: Gwydion on 19 January 2022, 12:51:16 AMI was about to post earlier, then thought better of it, but changed my mind again - we seem to judging the rules on the figures rather than on the rules.

I have never heard of them until now I don't think - not on Facebook, no intention of ever being on Facebook, so only a few bits of info found so far.

I like the idea of large scale battles on small tables - have to see what they actually deliver before I can comment on the rules themselves.

Yeah, the name's a bit Leni Riefenstahl isn't it?

Yes it's a bit difficult to get a firm idea on the rules themselves as they haven't been published yet and there doesn't seem to be to be much in the way of summaries around.  I admit I'm a bit late to the party, so I haven't come across much preliminary information, although I did find this blog interview with the author interesting:

Blog interview with Mark Backhouse (https://godsownscale6mm.podbean.com/e/episode-38-the-one-with-mark-backhouse-talking-strength-and-honour/)

I believe that there are demo games arranged at a few wargames shows, but I am still quite wary of attending large gatherings, which is unfortunate as there is one at Vapnartak in my home town soon.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: KeithS on 19 January 2022, 01:18:16 PM
Quote from: Leon on 18 January 2022, 09:38:04 PMWe've been doing the moulding for the Antonine 2mm figures and they're quite fun little sculpts.  They're very small (obviously!) but you can make out things like horses and shield shapes, so you can discern Legionaries vs Auxiliaries vs Cavalry, etc.

That's interesting and the fact that you are involved in the project makes me feel a little less disloyal to Pendraken and 10mm in looking elsewhere for figures.  ;)  :D Happy to support both Warbases and Pendraken mind, two great companies that I have enjoyed dealing with over the years.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: sultanbev on 19 January 2022, 01:33:23 PM
HOR3 looks like they'll be great for 10mm vegetable gardens in full leaf. The Pendraken cabbage patch  :)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Leon on 19 January 2022, 04:32:27 PM
Quote from: KeithS on 19 January 2022, 01:18:16 PMThat's interesting and the fact that you are involved in the project makes me feel a little less disloyal to Pendraken and 10mm in looking elsewhere for figures.  ;)  :D Happy to support both Warbases and Pendraken mind, two great companies that I have enjoyed dealing with over the years.

No worries, Warbases are good guys so I hope these 2mm ranges go well for them.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: fsn on 19 January 2022, 06:02:11 PM
Hair roller armies!

http://flownlegions.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html (http://flownlegions.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html)


So if that block is Romans, could they also be a Greek phalanx, or a Macedonian pike unit or whatever?

Too small for me ... may as well go to counters for my eyesight. 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 19 January 2022, 07:12:38 PM

QuoteHair roller armies!

http://flownlegions.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html (http://flownlegions.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html)


So if that block is Romans, could they also be a Greek phalanx, or a Macedonian pike unit or whatever?

Too small for me ... may as well go to counters for my eyesight. 
I like the way Irregular did their 2mm pike blocks.


(http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/modelMiniatures/images/figures/2mmpikessmall.jpg)

(http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/modelMiniatures/images/figures/2mmpikesbig.jpg)

I'm not sure whether that approach would work when scaled to "Antonine" unit size.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Orcs on 19 January 2022, 07:45:59 PM
Looking at the very well painted (Not by me) 6mm armies I have, I am finding issues identifying stuff, so this small stuff is not for me.

That said I have been intrigued by the Irregular 2mm stuff and it does look ok and can be painted ok.
As to the rules I can see the point of having a single base per legion if you are limited space or cost wise.

But as I have no issues putting together a large table at home  (10 x 4 or 8 x 5) I would rather play mass battles with 10mm Figures, as they look good en-mass and you have room to maneuver in a big battle.

I would however wish Warbases and the author all the best as "One mans meat is another mans poison"

 

 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 19 January 2022, 09:34:54 PM
I think the idea is that you would recognise formations not individuals. Solid squares of Romans, blobs of barbarians in various configurations, thin lines of skirmishers and so on.

I've seen designs for chariots and elephants on the Korhyl Miniatures (https://korhylminiatures.bigcartel.com/blog) site but no pike so far.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Leman on 20 January 2022, 11:57:18 AM
Too small for you, so don't use them. I had porridge for breakfast. It's great. Everybody should eat porridge. Cannot understand these disloyal people who eat granola fokr breakfast. Does anyone really care about my breakfast preferences. This site really does seem to be becoming very curmudgeonly.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: FierceKitty on 20 January 2022, 11:58:55 AM
Curmudgeons are the backbone of the hobby!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Raider4 on 20 January 2022, 12:42:15 PM

QuoteToo small for you, so don't use them. I had porridge for breakfast. It's great. Everybody should eat porridge. Cannot understand these disloyal people who eat granola fokr breakfast. Does anyone really care about my breakfast preferences. This site really does seem to be becoming very curmudgeonly.


Eh? Am I reading the same forum? I see a few comments along the lines of "Nope, too small for me, but good luck to them".

Hardly curmudgeonly.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 20 January 2022, 01:46:31 PM
Despite falling outside mu areas of interest, I do find this an interesting development.

The idea of a rules and figures range (or starter set) is something associated with the big companies like Games Workshop and Warlord Games.
It's commercially successful at their scale, and also popular with companies more adjacent to the boardgame market.


I wonder how it will play out with the Grognard generation.

I typically ask myself: How else can I use these figures if the rules don't work out?
At present Strength and Honour + 2mm appears to offer little answer to that, but time will tell.


The other possibility is to use the rules, but assemble units from groups of "traditional" WRG based figures.
Ancients gamers looking for the "next big thing" - especially a next big thing that hasn't been optimized for competition gaming  - may use that as their entry point.

Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: KeithS on 20 January 2022, 02:53:09 PM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 20 January 2022, 01:46:31 PMThe idea of a rules and figures range (or starter set) is something associated with the big companies like Games Workshop and Warlord Games.
It's commercially successful at their scale, and also popular with companies more adjacent to the boardgame market.


I'm not sure that it is quite so coordinated as GW or Warlord.  From listening to the blogs etc. my understanding is the author initially made his own figure groups out of modelling materials.   He was also talking to a variety of people about the rules and they have thought that this style of representing figures might be done commercially in various ways, for people who are less DIY inclined.

Of course, you could use Irregular (for example) 2mm figures, or I believe the rules allow you to go for larger scales although you increasingly run into the problem of a few figures representing very large formations.

At any rate I think that the idea grew more organically than some of GW or Warlord offerings, where the rules are more tailored to selling figures (or possibly vice versa).
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: hammurabi70 on 20 January 2022, 03:13:51 PM
QuoteI'm not sure that it is quite so coordinated as GW or Warlord.  From listening to the blogs etc. my understanding is the author initially made his own figure groups out of modelling materials.  He was also talking to a variety of people about the rules and they have thought that this style of representing figures might be done commercially in various ways, for people who are less DIY inclined.

Of course, you could use Irregular (for example) 2mm figures, or I believe the rules allow you to go for larger scales although you increasingly run into the problem of a few figures representing very large formations.

At any rate I think that the idea grew more organically than some of GW or Warlord offerings, where the rules are more tailored to selling figures (or possibly vice versa).

If one base is supposed to be a Legion then it would seem you would be into DBAesque rules, as such an army would be 60,000 strong.  Cohort style would seem more sensible and give flexibility but would mean big armies would still have a lot of bases so perhaps not so good!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 20 January 2022, 03:39:23 PM

QuoteIf one base is supposed to be a Legion then it would seem you would be into DBAesque rules, as such an army would be 60,000 strong.  Cohort style would seem more sensible and give flexibility but would mean big armies would still have a lot of bases so perhaps not so good!


In the one interview I've heard with the author he describes the drive to develop the rules being triggered by dissatisfaction with some elements of the DBA rules.

I can see me buying the rules, even though I may never play them, if initial reaction when released is sufficiently positive.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lardy Rich on 06 April 2022, 08:28:04 AM
Morning all.  I do apologise for rudely interrupting, but was a wee bit concerned about the Leni Riefenstahl comments.  "Strength & Honour" was a Roman military verbal salute.  The game's author/designer had his own working suggestion which was a bit bonkers, so we looked for another.  This was suggested by our old chum Henry Hyde who is, as we all know, the least fascist person around. 

It's funny how we have had a bit of push back since we started saying that the rules were for smaller scales, something I know Pete at Baccus has mentioned in the past.  Some people seem to have a very fixed idea about what constitutes a wargame; usually conforming with the games they play in the scale they prefer.

When it comes to 2mm being a bit odd, the good news is that you can play Strength & Honour in any scale, its just that the smaller scales give a better 'birds eye view' of a big army of tens of thousands of men. But that's just the authors own preference. Several companies started making figures based on the home made models Mark started using, and that's nice to see as it makes getting started much easier. However, this is not a big corporate attack on the hobby.  We haven't licensed the model production; we don't make a penny out of it, but they asked and we said 'yes' as it helps the gamers who were looking for models like Marks' ones but didn't feel like making their own.  As it happens, we are taking the game to Joy if Six in July and running a 6mm version there.  We also have a good few people preparing armies in 10mm.

Nobody is attempting to force anyone to play Strength & Honour in some 'weird' scale.  Indeed, nobody is attempting to force anyone to play the game at all if they don't fancy it.  To that end we are running a series of films on Lard TV which take you step by step on how to create an army and how to play a game.  People can then make an informed judgement about whether it is for them or not.

Fear not, the equilibrium of the world of wargaming is not under threat; it's just a set of rules that some people might well have a bit of fun with in hopefully challenging and enjoyable games.

Cheers

Richard
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mollinary on 06 April 2022, 09:09:00 AM
Curious, when I read the title, it was not  Leni Riefenstahl that came to mind, but 'Gladiator' with Russell Crowe fist pumping his legionaries ( ooh er, matron!) before the big battle at the start. 

I shall buy them, as I love looking at new rules to see if they have any mechanisms I like. They'll have to be pretty good, however, for me to use them instead of Commands and Color's Epic or To the Strongest! 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 06 April 2022, 09:15:58 AM
I've been watching these rules with interest. Having experimented a bit with 2mm in the gunpowder era I do like the overall look you can achieve with formation blocks. Gives you a much more realistic overview of what they'd actually look like with a bit of a "gods eye view" on the army. You can actually make settlements looks like settlements, not just a building or two. Forests can actually be forests, etc. It's a different aesthetic from how a lot of people view wargaming, but a no less valid one, and perhaps one more familiar to the video games generations.

With ancients you can get a lot of milage out of a single base - in 2mm the difference between a Marian, Ceasarian and Early imperial legion is negligible and large blocks of cavalry or warband infantry can serve a wide range of theatres. I like the idea of playing the great general ordering the entire battle about rather than small representatives of what is happening. I enjoy the spectacle of larger figures too, but 2mm gives you the flexibility of kriegspiel style gaming while still allowing a real battle like aesthetic looking down on the field of battle.

Haven't watched the latest video in the series yet but looking forward to seeing how the rules develop. The time and cost investment in them is fairly low and if they don't work out there's no reason you can't use the same figures for other ancients games like To the Strongest or Hail Caesar.

I suspect whether you like or dislike the very small scales will come down to what you find interesting in the hobby. If you're more into the toy soldier aspects of it then of course this style won't be your thing, whereas if you're more into the history and grand tactical aspects of it then it can have a lot of appeal, and from what I've seen so far you could just as easily do it in larger scales. I think the recommended base sizes are 120mm frontage so you can fit a lot of figures on that in 6mm or 10mm and could have it set up as a cohort representing a legion for instance. In fact it would be feasible to do a 1:1 century at 10mm on that base size, it's more of an abstract representation then, but isn't that true of all wargaming unless you're doing 1:1 skirmishing!

I'm happy to see the very small scales getting a bit more exposure, will be interested to see if the rules are good, or if they encourage others to create rules at a similar level. Plus more figure ranges is always welcome!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 06 April 2022, 09:16:13 AM

QuoteCurious, when I read the title, it was not  Leni Riefenstahl that came to mind, but 'Gladiator' with Russell Crowe fist pumping his legionaries ( ooh er, matron!) before the big battle at the start.
Same!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: DecemDave on 06 April 2022, 10:45:14 AM
QuoteFear not, the equilibrium of the world of wargaming is not under threat

Well you are no fun at all then  :D   

Its been amazing to watch the anticipation build up on FB.  I will be pre-ordering and will defo use the top down pics to see if I should think about 10mm versions!   
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: DecemDave on 06 April 2022, 11:15:11 AM
Deep in the "bonus material" for Gladiator is an interview with Ridley Scott where he said he based his vision of Commodus's Rome on the gatherings of the well known fascist state previously mentioned. Hence the adoring crowds (well initially), the salutes, the architecture, the black clad Praetorians etc.

I find it difficult to imagine those on the receiving end of the republic/empires expansion regarding invading legions as liberators or even bringers of improvements in sanitation and roads.

Lights fuse and retires 200 paces...
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Big Insect on 06 April 2022, 01:28:42 PM
Quote from: DecemDave on 06 April 2022, 11:15:11 AM... or even bringers of improvements in sanitation and roads...


Don't forget the education. Or the aqueducts ... ;D
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Gwydion on 06 April 2022, 04:36:01 PM
Not for one minute was I suggesting anyone involved with this set of rules is a Fascist or a Nazi.

However...
The name does have just a smidge of that turn of phrase beloved of what shall we say - robust Aryan collectivism?  :)
Triumph of the Will,
Blood and Honour,
Strength through Joy

Was it really used by Romans as a salutation?
(I'm guessing from above posts that it was used in 'Gladiator'? I must be the only wargamer alive who has never seen the film).

Anyway, no offence intended. The rules sound interesting and as I said above, shall certainly not judge them on scale of figure used as that seems irrelevant.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 06 April 2022, 05:32:22 PM

QuoteWas it really used by Romans as a salutation?
Apparently, it was a battle cry particularly during the Augustine period (though I don't have any actual source for that beyond reading it on the internet somewhere so take that with a pinch of salt)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Gwydion on 06 April 2022, 05:48:30 PM
I couldn't find any evidence of it being a greeting (or a battle cry, though that sounds more plausible).

I did find a story that said Russell Crowe made it up for the film from a school motto, but again the provenance of that story is shaky as well.
Oh well.
Salve atque Vale!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Raider4 on 06 April 2022, 06:44:24 PM
QuoteStrength through Joy
BMW used to use advertising slogans centered around the word 'joy', which I always thought was brave of them.

Ditto Audi, when they replaced the 80/90 range with the A4 ('proper' code for what we call the V-2).
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 06 April 2022, 06:56:59 PM
The title certainly did cause me a moments hesitation. The film it brought to mind was not Gladiator but Cabaret .... "Tomorrow belongs, tomorrow belongs , tomorrow belongs to me!"

Not that I assumed anyone connected to the projects was in any way fascist or Nazi, simply that it was an odd choice.

If I were ever to write a set of Imperial Roman Era rules I think I'd want to call them "Cedo Alteram." :)

As to the project itself, I find myself increasingly drawn to the idea.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 06 April 2022, 10:57:47 PM
Watched the latest video on it, still covering the forces for the demo game but looking forward to the next few getting into the rules proper. They did mention that while the initial rules are aimed at late Republic and early Imperial Rome there are plans to expand into other periods, particularly the successors and polybian legions. Could make for some epic looking Macedonian pike blocks. 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 07 April 2022, 10:22:46 AM
Some marketing thoughts from somebody who has never marketed anything.

I think the subtitle and cover art make it clear that Strength and Honour is set in the world of the Romans.

It's hardly Caesar's biggest problem that three of the worst Europeans of the 1930s decided to trade on his imagery.
I've faced a similar problem delving into the Migrating German tribes: Plenty of good online sources, but any n00b posting on a forum attracts approaches from some unsavoury Blood and Soil types.

These people have decided to park their tanks near our lawn.
That entails explaining ourselves a little more often than I'd wish, but also not offering them the slightest hint of support or "fellow enthusiast" camaraderie.



The rules include some bold innovations in battle size, figure scale and the gridded table.

I think the battle size is the big selling point: It reaches the battles that appear in the history books (and hopefully allows a conclusion in an evening).

The other two points may deter a few potential customers.

Small figures: Some people will fall into the "They're too small" or the "I don't want to buy Romans in another scale" camps.
I think  it's important to repeat the "Designed for little soldiers, but works with any" mantra.
Some years back, the ancients world got excited about "Impetus bases", they looked good and had a nice set of associated rules.
A few pictures of people using their bigger figures on Impetus bases or WRG bases and movement trays would help dispel the myth of "It's 2mm all the way down".

Grids: There's a small but vocal bunch on forums who'll unthinkingly regurgitate their "Grids mean it's just a boardgame" mantra. These aren't your customers. I also get the feeling they are a small noisy group.
My adventures in wargaming have les me to the conclusion that the bigger the battle, the more scope for grids.
Grids are hardly revolutionary, Peter Pig had them as a core mechanism for at least 20 years, More recently To the Strongest  burst onto the ancients competition scene with some success.
I think the way to sell the grid is to play on the "Established yet innovative" and "Well suited to big battles".


I've hesitated on purchase.
Back in the day I was a "Buy all the rules" guy, but rules cost between 2 quid and a lady Godiva.
It's a bigger decision when the book costs a pony.

On the other hand, Lardies rules are always a good thought provoking read.
I've also just emerged from an unexpected hospital visit, and expect to have limited mobility for a couple of months.
So I won't be splashing out on bicycle accessories for a bit.

So expect an order soon, I will enjoy the read.
And if the title frightens off any cold calling JW evangelists, I'll consider that a win.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: John Cook on 07 April 2022, 10:47:57 AM
Quote from: Gwydion on 06 April 2022, 04:36:01 PMHowever...
The name does have just a smidge of that turn of phrase beloved of what shall we say - robust Aryan collectivism? 

Only if you want it to, by the look of things.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 07 April 2022, 11:07:30 AM
Given fascism draws much of its inspiration from an idealised version of ancient Rome (right down to using the name of the old symbol of office, the fasces) I imagine any references to the time period run such a risk for someone who is really looking for it. I imagine most people are sensible enough to understand the context. Just maybe don't take a copy of the rules onto any school grounds lest an oversensitive soul call the police on you for radicalisation...
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: FierceKitty on 07 April 2022, 12:15:48 PM
Quote from: mmcv on 07 April 2022, 11:07:30 AMGiven fascism draws much of its inspiration from an idealised version of ancient Rome (right down to using the name of the old symbol of office, the fasces) I imagine any references to the time period run such a risk for someone who is really looking for it. I imagine most people are sensible enough to understand the context. Just maybe don't take a copy of the rules onto any school grounds lest an oversensitive soul call the police on you for radicalisation...

Heavens, a genuine subjunctive, Carruthers. I thought they were extinct in this part of the 'net!

Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Gwydion on 07 April 2022, 01:53:33 PM
Quote
QuoteHowever...
The name does have just a smidge of that turn of phrase beloved of what shall we say - robust Aryan collectivism? 

Only if you want it to, by the look of things.
Or have eyes to read.

Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 07 April 2022, 04:03:53 PM
Pre-ordered.

Now I just need to stop myself buying more additions to the lead mountain from Warbases.

"I can resist anything except temptation" :)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 07 April 2022, 06:37:44 PM

QuoteWatched the latest video on it, still covering the forces for the demo game but looking forward to the next few getting into the rules proper. They did mention that while the initial rules are aimed at late Republic and early Imperial Rome there are plans to expand into other periods, particularly the successors and polybian legions. Could make for some epic looking Macedonian pike blocks.
Yes 2mm seems ideal for conveying the mass look of pike blocks.

Even Irregular's groups of 30 look quite imposing at that scale.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: paulr on 07 April 2022, 08:01:23 PM
QuoteSome marketing thoughts from somebody who has never marketed anything.
...
I've also just emerged from an unexpected hospital visit, and expect to have limited mobility for a couple of months.
...

All thoughts well made :-bd

Best wishes for a speedy recovery and plenty of enjoyable reading
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 April 2022, 01:17:29 AM
I've just read this lot. It looks as if I should delay publication of my Living Room Campaigns rules for a while.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Elliesdad on 08 April 2022, 08:38:49 AM
QuoteI've just read this lot. It looks as if I should delay publication of my Living Room Campaigns rules for a while.

It took a few seconds before it finally sunk in...  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: John Cook on 08 April 2022, 08:43:26 AM
Living room?  Careful - too many connotations to right-wing postmodernism. 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 08 April 2022, 08:59:21 AM

QuoteI've just read this lot. It looks as if I should delay publication of my Living Room Campaigns rules for a while.
;D
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 08 April 2022, 10:22:10 AM
Where can you find these rules ?
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 April 2022, 10:49:31 AM
All climates, from Russia to the Sahara.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 08 April 2022, 12:47:54 PM
Had a look at the Two Fat Lardies site just to find out a bit more about them. Appears that they are set for release around 25 April 2022, not that I will be investing in them or any 2mm armies anytime soon  O:-) 
 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 08 April 2022, 01:16:04 PM
I've pre-ordered because big battles and gridded games interest me.

I'm less interested in the whole constellation of ancients, but usually enjoy a read through a Lardy inspired work.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Raider4 on 08 April 2022, 02:07:38 PM


This just turned up in my 'you might like'* queue. Presumably there's a part one.


* Along with the Horrible Histories monarchs song. Why?

Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Gwydion on 08 April 2022, 03:11:16 PM
Quote from: John Cook on 08 April 2022, 08:43:26 AMLiving room?  Careful - too many connotations to right-wing postmodernism. 


'Wohnzimmerregeln'?

Sounds fine to me. You're seeing Blackshirts under the bed.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Zippee on 09 April 2022, 10:20:31 AM
I find the 2mm blocks an interesting concept (although I think the images have rather overdone the blobbing of the Gallic hordes  :D ). And the terrain and scenery look fab. However I have far to heavy an investment in 15mm to consider a change now, even at the minimal cost of around £50 per army (and to be fair you'll probably only ever need two 'armies' as they are quite generic).

I converted from DBM to Impetus basing years ago and see no reason to change again. If I hadn't had the investment I had then I'd have been (read: was) sorely tempted to change to 10mm and I think that 6mm or 10mm will give an excellent mass look, but at significantly higher cost than these 2mm blocks which seem to be around £3-4 per base

I'll give these rules a whirl and see absolutely no reason why my 15mm Impetus basing won't suit.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50494974957_fe82fc7cc2_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jW4WQv)
Pezetairoi 00 (https://flic.kr/p/2jW4WQv) by Zippee Jerred (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50494198658_90ee875b4f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jVZY53)
Early Seleukid Elephants 00 (https://flic.kr/p/2jVZY53) by Zippee Jerred (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/), on Flickr

If I had a complaint to lodge it would be  that once again we start with the boring, overblown Romans of the classical era instead of the Greek and Hellenistic. I find the history of Antigonus trying to rebuild an empire far more interesting than Rome buying a used empire at the flea market.

Anyway I've put my 26 quid on the table, we'll wait to see what 25 April brings.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Zippee on 09 April 2022, 10:27:25 AM
QuoteThis just turned up in my 'you might like'* queue. Presumably there's a part one.


So far there appears to be 11 videos in the S&H playlist
https://www.youtube.com/user/toofatlardies/playlists
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Glorfindel on 09 April 2022, 11:39:24 AM
Many thanks for the play list link.   I am intrigued by the possibilities of 2mm and have enjoyed the various  magazine / web articles.   If nothing else, it's been an education to see the spectacular terrain being made.  Brigade Models' buildings may be in demand soon.   Phil
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Zippee on 23 April 2022, 10:45:04 AM
Well my copy arrived ahead of schedule and very nice it looks too.

Having watched the full play through on 'tube and scanned the rules it certainly looks fast-play and quite cinematic. I'm not convinced of the push back of units at this scale being as dramatic as shown - a push back of several hundred yards in good order seems very unlikely to me but its a visual game mechanic I guess.

The rules themselves come in at c40 pages (after a few pages introduction) with 10 more on formations and campaigns, so fairly streamlined with decent sized font that I found easy to read.

We have 20 army lists which covers the usual suspects for the period and 10 historical scenarios:
Chaeronea, Silarus, Tigranocerta, Vosges, Sambre, Bagradas, Nicoplois, Cilicican Gates, Watling Street and Bedriacum (2nd Cremona)

Also lots of pages of setback and disaster cards which feels like a waste of effort in this age of pdf supplements but I guess the rules would be incomplete without them. They are bound into the book, not perforated or anything, so will just stay there for evermore in my copy.

Lots of photos of units - mostly familiar if you've watched the 'tubes - throughout. Enough to be attractive, evocative and helpful but not overkill. And front and rear inside cover advertisements for 2mm army suppliers and terrain mats.

All in all, a good product that seems to play well judging by the 'tubes (yet to give them a bash myself) and the 2mm blocks have a tempting appeal that had me browsing the advertised suppliers websites*. However, the rules include suggested grid and base sizes for 2mm, 6mm and 10mm and up which shows that its all very flexible, the only key thing being to relate the base size to the grid size. It isn't even necessary that both armies be based the same as long as they can use the same sized grid - that is with one base being wider than 1 grid box but smaller than 2.

*I was strong and did not succumb but I felt the tempting urge to 'experiment'

Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 23 April 2022, 11:00:26 AM
My copy arrived yesterday, look interesting
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: fred. on 23 April 2022, 11:34:03 AM
QuoteHowever, the rules include suggested grid and base sizes for 2mm, 6mm and 10mm and up which that its all very flexible, the only key thing being to relate the base size to the grid size. It isn't even necessary that both armies be based the same as long as they can use the same sized grid - that is with one base being wider than 1 grid box but smaller than 2.
Can I just check that last bit - that a base is wider than the grid? That is an unusual way of using grids compared to other games
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 23 April 2022, 12:19:35 PM
My copy arrived yesterday as well. I've had a quick skim through and am impressed so far, though it does still feel a bit like a board game dressed up as a tabletop wargame.

I'll second what Zippee has said.

The only thing I'm having problems wrapping my head around is the idea that the tabletop is divided into squares but units straddle and occupy two adjacent squares. Perhaps gameplay will reveal this to be a brilliant solution to a problem of which I am as yet unaware.

Unlike Rommel, of which I had high hopes which were dashed,  this is turning out to be much more "my sort of game" than I expected.

Hopefully, some enterprising manufacturer is about to produce Set Back and Disaster cards/ chits which are the only thing that seems  missing, so far. I'm certainly not chopping up the rulebook to use the ones there. Some card sleeves, some old collectable cards and a bit of time with the GIMP will fix that, if not.

I foresee foothills of lead added to the mountain in the near future.

If the chickens will not eat, let them drink! :)

Iacta alea est!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Zippee on 23 April 2022, 12:30:10 PM
Just to confirm.
Yes unit bases occupy two adjacent grid squares (side-to-side) - why? No idea!

Your pre-order comes with a pdf copy which will be sent out on Monday: apparently as Monday is the official release date. That will make printing cards fairly efficient.

Although as the cards are just numeric values it would be pretty simple to make up any kind of chit or counter pick up system. You don't even need to pick/deal them until someone declares "Homunculus Est". You just need to know how many setbacks and disasters you have until then. I'm not convinced cards are the best way to manage this.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 23 April 2022, 02:09:39 PM
Mine arrived yesterday, and like others here I skimmed through the content.

The 2 squares wide, one deep arrangement makes provision for wheeling the huge formations represented by each base.
Aesthetically it also allows the 2 deep formations (Pike and warband I think) to appear like rough squares.

Unit definitions consist of a relatively simple stat line coupled with optional "special rules".
The special rules are (thankfully) really obvious in the main.
I'm a slow absorber of stat lines, but recognise the small number of values in each here - keeping things simple.

Having "cut out" cards at the back is a bit of a niggle.
Having mastered the art of printing cards for other games, I'll likely produce a poker size set and insert them into card holders.

The only other gripe is the lack of (unless I missed it) of a quick reference sheet.
Like many lardy rules, there are a number of small tables, and beginners will find themselves flipping through the rules for these, making their own, or downloading a fan made copy.


I see no problem with the rules claim of "quick resolution", there is no massive list of modifiers.
Combat is resolved on a d6 (with units at big advantage rolling 2 or 3 and picking the best result).

Deployment, Movement and after combat results all seem simple, yet leave sufficient options to keep things interesting.

I'm now waiting for the printable PDF units, as they seem the ideal medium for a quick solo game or two.


Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: fred. on 24 April 2022, 08:49:57 AM
Watched a couple of the videos yesterday - the 2 squares wide, 1 deep units are definitely to do with movement, and slowing down movement in general, and particularly fancy movements to the side etc. 

Some interesting bits to the game - but the 2mm figures aren't really doing it for me. But it seems no reason you couldn't go with a larger figures scale, with the standard 12x6cm bases. 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 24 April 2022, 09:23:04 AM
I'm intending to use 6mm stuff as I have a late republic Roman and large celtic force based on 60x30 bases. I suspect the squares will be 40mm. The rules are well written and a good read (unlike most sets) also seem very clear. I suspect that the Lardies will be producing play aids, although I will scan the cards and laminate them.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 24 April 2022, 12:13:24 PM
The only potential hitch I see with larger figures is a classic ancients problem.
Some fairly big objects can operate as skirmishers, but require considerably larger bases than the standard skirmisher base.

In the case of Strength and Honour, skirmishing light chariots and elephant skirmish lines will be the problem.
They won't fit onto "standard" 10mm deep skirmish or support strips.

Enterprising gamers will find their own solutions.
They have presumably selected their own grid size.
Small bases of chariots and elephants (over deep, but under wide) can represent skirmishers and supports without placing excess stress on the grid.

Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 24 April 2022, 07:01:43 PM
Update on a couple of earlier grumbles

Downloads for Command board and QRS (https://toofatlardies.co.uk/strength-honour-downloads/?fbclid=IwAR3jsuaA-lPE8SEiSxMowZhyqwH4Y_ouWJhnqk_9-oBFre1S7bDfWFyY_ek)

And for this wishing to build their own setback and disaster cards.

Half Size "Blank" playing cards (Amazon) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07XSB6BKF/?coliid=I17FIA9SW4OOIR&colid=NC25S2RGX438&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

Full sized "Blank" playing cards (Amazon) (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Blank-Playing-Cards-pack-100/dp/B00II57WVO/ref=psdc_364143031_t2_B07XSB6BKF)



Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 24 April 2022, 07:27:02 PM
Thanks for the links
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 24 April 2022, 07:31:05 PM
I have some 2mm test figures on order from Irregular Miniatures, some business cards on order from Amazon and an idea for a scratch built Roman camp.

I am indeed lost! :)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 24 April 2022, 09:32:43 PM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 24 April 2022, 07:31:05 PMI am indeed lost! :)

As gamers aren't we all somewhat tempted by shiny new stuff Mike?  :) 


Depends on your resistance level I guess  ;)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 25 April 2022, 09:31:37 AM
I have now had not one, not two, but three emails telling me my Strength and Honour order is complete.

My understanding was that those of us who pre-ordered the paper copy rulebook would also get a pdf copy but none of the three emails mention this and there is no instruction on where or how to acquire the pdf.

Have I misunderstood what was on offer?
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: DecemDave on 25 April 2022, 09:57:06 AM
Same here.  And with the "downloads" section totally blank.
I am assuming for today that this is a computer problem which I have noticed seems to occasionally (!!) afflict most modern companies these days.  >:(
I would ring them up but expect I would get a recorded message saying that my call is important but they have no one to answer it owing to 500 impatient gamers all calling at the same time.

Has anyone written rules with names like "Blunder and Chaos"?  Possibly more militarily accurate anyway   :d  :d
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 25 April 2022, 10:21:59 AM
There's an announcement on Facebook that things have gone "tits up" with the 3 emails.
Lardy Rich is knitting personal mails to each customer which ought to take care of business.


I'd advise waiting until the end of the day.
If matters aren't resolved by then, consider forwarding one of the 3 emails back as an illustration of what went wrong.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 25 April 2022, 10:37:27 AM
I have to confess to being a TLF rules junkie, so I weakened and did the pre-order just before it closed....I watched some of the Youtube videos and was suitably hooked.

Like Ithoriel and Dave I got 3 emails in quick sucession this afternoon from TFL, however all three had PDF download links for the rules and the top down "starter army" bases (which are very nicely done) The hard copy rules are on the way as well.  :o  :-bd 

My first impressions......WOW!!! A very nicely presented set of ancient rules that look like they will a lot of fun to play after labouring through the period with WRG rules for many years (Well DBM/DBMM wise anyway, I do like DBA).

The 20 army lists give plenty of veriety of both Roman and opposing armies from the 100BC to 200AD period and emphasis is on the optionally of using other units if the players wish to field them if their own research indicates that they can.

Should I have bought them? Logically probably not as we play so many different things here already but then I'm not planning on pushing anyone else into playing them anytime soon.

Overall I've got no regrets getting them though, they look like another very solid set of rules from TFL from a first look (interupted by a 45 minute power cut!).         
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 25 April 2022, 11:11:44 AM
Same for me. I was informed on Friday that the PDF's will be ready tomorrow.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 25 April 2022, 11:12:37 AM
"To err is human, for a real f**k up you need a computer" :)

To be honest, I'd assumed the error might be mine, the mental cogs and wheels do not spin as fast as they once did, I find.

I'll await further emails with interest!
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: mmcv on 22 June 2022, 05:24:53 PM
These rules (and pretty much everything else on the site) are available with 20% off using the discount code APOLLO on https://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/ for the moment.

I may have picked up the pdf of the rules and the printable armies. Now if only I could fix my printer.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Ithoriel on 22 June 2022, 06:58:03 PM
Having played a couple of games on Saturday I would say that if you have an interest in the Armies and Enemies of Rome, or if you just like games with innovative mechanisms, get 'em while they're hot! :)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 06 August 2022, 02:00:39 AM
I got sent some house rules for converting Strength and Honour to cover the medieval period (100YW specifically).

Anyone here interested in seeing them? They are not extensive....2 pages, but might be useful base to build from.

 
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 06 August 2022, 08:25:32 AM
I'd be interested have large 6mm WoR force.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: DecemDave on 06 August 2022, 10:00:07 AM
QuoteI got sent some house rules for converting Strength and Honour to cover the medieval period (100YW specifically).


Yes Please.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Orcs on 06 August 2022, 10:42:19 AM
Yes please, Sunjester and I have large WOR armies.
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 06 August 2022, 10:46:50 AM
OK here is the original sized screenshot from the S&H facebook group...the rules were originally put together by Paul Clarke.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52266695343_dd040aaa57_o.png)

Hope they are of use to you all  :)
Title: Re: Strength and Honour Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 06 August 2022, 11:04:24 AM
Can't see em in the files section