The obvious answer is that the planet has too many people but with only a finite (and decreasing) amount of resources.

Fewer people should mean that the rate at which humans "use" the resources is slowed down.

Then again, vast number of people these days feel they are "entitled" so it can be difficult to get them to accept the changing situation.
For example, I used to work with a guy (in Sheffield, England) who had a flat/apartment in Barcelona (Spain)  so he could "pop over for plenty of weekends-away". But what about all the cost of flying to/from Barcelona, both £££ and carbon footprint etc?
I can genuinely see a time when many (most?) humans will not be able to "go to Dubai" for the weekend, let alone visit the temples in Southeast Asia. In some respects I have no problem with that. We have to carefully look after our resources and not squander them...

One final note - I heard of one guy complaining he'd tried unsuccessfully to fill his petrol tank with fuel. He spent 2 hours (yes, two hours) trying to buy more petrol. I wonder if he could see the irony at all...?

Geoff

Thankfully the panic hasn't affected us here, petrol station was fairly empty if people this evening. Not seen any queues at all.

I suspect we'll not be able to reduce the overall population without some pretty nasty measures. Even a one child policy won't help without a massive population redistribution.

We needed to be taking those steps decades ago. That's why I think the only solution now is to go through, using technology and progress. People, at least many of them, are ultimately too selfish and self absorbed to "plant trees under whose shade they'll never sit".

Quote from: mmcv on 28 September 2021, 01:17:44 PM
I'm just holding out for driverless electric cars like they've trialled in some places. Automatic cars that you can just ping when you need them and the nearest one comes to you. Same for modular public transport and HGVs. Once we get us meatsacks away from behind the wheel transportation will become many times more efficient and safer. No need for traffic lights, calming measures, roundabouts, speed limits...just a full autonomous transportation system.

Of course, it'll be a while yet before that's viable anywhere but big cities, but it's a start!

That Raymond Baxter off of the Tomorrow's Worlds promised me flying cars by 2000.

Quote from: mmcv on 28 September 2021, 08:11:55 PM
People, at least many of them, are ultimately too selfish and self absorbed to "plant trees under whose shade they'll never sit".

That's because vast numbers of people believe they are "special".
Normal rules don't apply to them and they should have everything & anything they want (because they are special, after all).
The special ones don't have to take a turn in a queue, or wait until they've saved money to buy something - they "want what they want", and they want it immediately, now, without delay.
The rest of the world, seemingly, just needs to bow to the every whim of the special ones.

No. For humanity to continue, to enjoy a decent standard of living in a pleasant, healthy natural world then I suspect we are going to have to make some painful decisions. Yet it seems that many - even in Governments - are reluctant to "grasp the nettle" and seize the opportunity now, while we still can.
It hardly fills me with confidence.

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 28 September 2021, 08:34:20 PM
That Raymond Baxter off of the Tomorrow's Worlds promised me flying cars by 2000.

Wasn't the oil supposed to have run out by then anyway?

Bear in mind that human development, and population growth have been closely linked to most effective harnessing of energy resources.

Unfashionable as it is, we are still in the petrochemical age.
If we cannot find an efficient replacement before the supplies run short, we will go into decline.
If we crack fusion power or some other miracle energy, we may continue to grow.

Wars have been remarkably inefficient at reducing human population.
Now obviously letting off all the Nukes at once would make an interesting exception.
But a few Armageddon fans aside, we don't wish to go there.

Natural disasters leading to widespread harvest failure, or diseases have had far greater effect.

Most of the west's disease preparation has been focused on the day when our Antibiotics lose their powers.
A good deal of the post Antibiotic planning has been practiced during the first 6 months of covid.

If I know what would happen next, I'd buy a lottery ticket.

Quote from: Steve J on 28 September 2021, 03:57:09 PM
Basically we have too many people on the planet. When I was born the global population was 3.2 billion, now it is 7.8 billion. When I was at Uni in 1983, the automotive industry knew that it couldn't allow China to become a car owning state, due to the pollution emitted given its population size. Really I think we are talking about sticking plaster solutions when major surgery is required .

Exactly. People have done the maths and the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet is c500,000,000. Or it was, on an undamaged planet. 97% of the planet's surface has been degraded by human activity in some form, so even that is questionable. As I put on other forums:

This is not a climate crisis.
Climate chaos is merely a symptom of the predicament we are in.
It's not even a crisis of capitalism. Whatever -ism we would have had after WW2 would have got us to the same place.
It's not even a crisis of overpopulation and overconsumption (although they both play a huge part)

It is a crisis of civilisation itself. How humans organise, feed and equip themselves whilst staying within the ecological limits of a now resource-famished planet along with all the other species on the planet.

Quote from: Elliesdad on 28 September 2021, 08:42:35 PM
That's because vast numbers of people believe they are "special".

Yeah and most of them are in positions of power so have no incentive to change things, and will likely be gone by the time it gets really bad. Ultimately appeals to conscience will only go so far, need to create a situation, either through social shame or pragmatic self interest for people to make changes. There is a growing movement towards social attitudes pressuring the big problem makers, but suspect it comes too late. Maybe we should be looking into underwater biospheres? Then we can survive a few more generations and properly mess up the rest of the ocean too (though not much left we've not ruined). Or get building those generational spaceships...

But yeah, realistically our best bet are some bright scientists finding solutions, like the plastic eating bacteria, new power sources with less negative side effects, more efficient ways to use what we have already.

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 28 September 2021, 08:34:20 PM
That Raymond Baxter off of the Tomorrow's Worlds promised me flying cars by 2000.

Here you go, only a little late www.bbc.com/news/technology-57651843. Do we really need flying cars though?

Quote from: Elliesdad on 28 September 2021, 07:00:53 PM
The obvious answer is that the planet has too many people but with only a finite (and decreasing) amount of resources.

Fewer people should mean that the rate at which humans "use" the resources is slowed down.

Then again, vast number of people these days feel they are "entitled" so it can be difficult to get them to accept the changing situation.
For example, I used to work with a guy (in Sheffield, England) who had a flat/apartment in Barcelona (Spain)  so he could "pop over for plenty of weekends-away". But what about all the cost of flying to/from Barcelona, both £££ and carbon footprint etc?
I can genuinely see a time when many (most?) humans will not be able to "go to Dubai" for the weekend, let alone visit the temples in Southeast Asia. In some respects I have no problem with that. We have to carefully look after our resources and not squander them...

One final note - I heard of one guy complaining he'd tried unsuccessfully to fill his petrol tank with fuel. He spent 2 hours (yes, two hours) trying to buy more petrol. I wonder if he could see the irony at all...?

Geoff

May I visit a few temples in Southeast Asia if I walk? My favourite is about four miles away.

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 28 September 2021, 08:34:20 PM
That Raymond Baxter off of the Tomorrow's Worlds promised me flying cars by 2000.

Edgar Rice Burroughs promised underdressed incredibly hot female Martians.

WOW! A Really 'wandering' thread! So, some random responses.... some 'contentious'...

Certainly possiible with present tech to replace a car battery in a 'robotic' station... just quicker, easier and cheaper to utilise humans.

Human population growth  has been the Greatest Threat... both to Humans... and 'The Planet'... but...just WHAT do you DO about it?
I was an 'Environmental Studies' graduate back in 80s... and just gave up on it. Either 'things' WILL get a Hell of a lot worse.. or they won't... and We are NOT going to 'like' either situation.

Britain had an Empire... and there were other Colonial powers. WE had the chance to DO things to SAVE THE WOULD... but we just gave it up to let Peoples live their own lives... and here we all are. In the ****. There were generations who KNEW that they were 'special'... for good or ill. Now... we're ALL in the ****.

Back to petrol...the craze for BIG 4x4s as 'second cars' is so B**** silly! But, Women seem to feel safer in them for the 'School Run' Give them a Mini... and they might not do the Stupid stuff that they do.

Another 4am Rant completed. Too Knackered to rant more!

A vasectomy is quick and cheap, and, while alarming, it doesn't hurt....

Back to Student Days...  read of India. 70s/ 80s... raids on railway stations... with vasectomy for 'Low Caste'... like it or not. This in 'Scientific publications'... degree research for essays.
Now, sceptical... but possible.

I'm afraid there was a lot of that in the Great and Good Mrs Gandhi's Get Rid of Poverty ( = "Get rid of Poor People") drive. Ask any educated Indian who was around at the time. It set back real reform severely.

Good experience at my garage today ...... Roll 2D6

Modifiers
+3 if your vehicle has a blue light
+2 for all the goodly people who are caring within the community for others and for vulnerable etc
+1 for business needs to keep the wheel on so to speak
+1 if you know who Pendraken are and have bought from them in the last 6 months
-1 if your tank is showing half or more full
-3 if you have a petrol guzzling vehicle, but need it to get the kids to school in a city environment, who go to school half a mile away!

Any score will get you £10 of fuel OR
8 or better will get you £25 of fuel OR
10+ allows £35 of fuel

Critical hits are double six gives you a full tank whatever that takes and double 1's means that in your panic, you have put diesel in the petrol and vice-versa.

It is so good, I'm hoping they keep this going even once we all realise that there is actually enough petrol for normal use!

Unfortunately, today I rolled raw double 1's, so I am waiting on the forecourt for the RAC rescue services to come and tow me away ... sometimes you just have to take your knocks and smile

Quote from: Norm on 29 September 2021, 07:01:09 AM
Unfortunately, today I rolled raw double 1's, so I am waiting on the forecourt for the RAC rescue services to come and tow me away ... sometimes you just have to take your knocks and smile

Ahh, my father-in-law managed to do that a couple of years ago. Hopefully you realised before trying to drive off? He didn't . . .

Quote from: Norm on 29 September 2021, 07:01:09 AM

Unfortunately, today I rolled raw double 1's, so I am waiting on the forecourt for the RAC rescue services to come and tow me away ... sometimes you just have to take your knocks and smile

I did that about 15 few years ago, and the tow truck driver said he did about 6 such mistakes a week. Its about time they made the nozzles a different size and shape so they would only fit in the correct type of fuel tank. ie Triangular for diesel and round for petrol

I thought newer cars had different sized holes for access to the petrol tank to prevent this from happening, or maybe I'm just imagining it? Lack of sleep last night to blame if it's the latter!

Must admit that I feel quite pessimistic about the future as I really don't believe people will be willing to give up what they have
to benefit others (many of whom are not born yet).

Although I wouldn't like to live under an alternative, democracy doesn't help here as it ensures politicians just plan for the short
term, with the next vote in mind.   In addition, voters won't elect a new government on a promise of reducing standards of living
to benefit such a nebulous term as 'the future of the human race'.

Perhaps benevolent tyranny ?   However, wouldn't be long before this corrupts the ruling caste.


Phil

It's not fuel shortage related, but more driver shortage related, but made me chuckle. If Scotland doesn't declare independence soon I'll be amazed...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/york-was-sacked-for-less-irn-bru-fans-fizzing-with-anger-after-deliveries-hit-by-driver-shortage-292630/