Wargame figures sizes tend to follow a pattern of evolution.

When Airfix revolutionised the hobby with their H0 &00 plastic soldiers back in the 1960s we had the accompanying railway layout scenery and the odd Blue Bell plastic farm from Hong Kong.  When Charles Grant published his first rules and battle reports in Meccano he opted for 1/87 Roco tanks and AFVs to accompany them.  We all engaged in that memorable "Action at Twin Farms". 

However, the plastic manufactures also made models of tanks and aircraft, so Airfix did a sale creep up to  1/76 or 20mm which complimented both vehicles and 1/72 aircraft.  The second version of Airfix 8th Army is a good example.

10mm started off as close to N gauge as possible,  but with aircraft at 1/144, and the arrival of dedicated wargame scenery, there was less dependency on N gauge, so figures from the likes of Timecast are getting close to what was 15mm when I started gaming in the 1960s. 

Quote from: Raider4 on 25 January 2020, 11:21:06 AM
Different sized weapons in a unit of mixed scale figures will stand out like one of Techno's sore thumbs . . .

Hey !.....My thumbs are fine !(It's usually the index finger on my left hand that takes the punishment )

And I haven't cut myself for.....No....I'm not going to tempt fate.

Cheers - Phil

A lot will depend on how the tanks are sold, at this moment in time it appears that PSC will sell 10 x T72 (say) and Victrix will sell in sixes. Both these boxing systems are borne from the Flames of War type system that sells things by the platoon, however, if like me, you like a variety of vehicles and might only need one or two of things, because you game at a fairly low level, then the new boxes of plastics may not be attractive.

Both PSC and Victrix will be delivering their own rule systems and so the figures will services them Organisationally, much as Battlefront do with Flames of War. It will likely take several years, certainly for Victrix to service the many vehicles and theatres, while keeping existing traditional lines maintained and expanded. If one jumps into their scale / system, one also has to hope that it will be supported over the long term and that the tap doesn't get turned off!

Flames of War players may be the natural  target audience for Victrix.

Gripping Beast have just brought out Milites Mundi, which is a sort of SwordPoint for 15mm and less and they are supporting that with their own 10mm metals. Interesting that this is another 28mm company that is embracing a smaller scale and I suppose in some ways it is safe to do this as the sales of each will not likely harm the other.

It might make wargame shows and wargame magazines  a bit more interesting, from the point of view that they might stop looking like a 28mm fest!  

EDIT - by the way Warlord Games have just announced a price hike that percentage wise is much less conservative than Pendrakens and I wonder whether that indicates that plastic is becoming expensive and whether the tooling up / production costs to expand and maintain a wide product base is just more expensive than the traditional lead based business and if so, that might become a factor in gamers choice.

An interesting discussion

Quote from: Norm on 25 January 2020, 04:51:33 PM
...if like me, you like a variety of vehicles and might only need one or two of things, because you game at a fairly low level, then the new boxes of plastics may not be attractive.

People will buy them and eBay the spares.

If they are going to sell 10mm for this period I think manufactuers need a two pronged approach:

1. Offer gamers a flexible approach when buying both modern AFV's and infantry - Yes offer "Complete Army" boxes to get people started but don't make them buy whole platoon boxes if they only want individual vehicles/fireteams....Don't encourage track to track "carparks" by over filling your 6 x 4 table with half of GSFG's actual number of T-64's/BMP-1/BTR-60PB on a 1:1 scale   

2. Don't tie them too closely to any one set of rules......there are many, many different sets of rules for the post 1945 era, which range from simple to incredibly detailed....what one person likes someone else may not...the trick seems to be finding the right rules balance.

I would potentially be interested in doing some 10mm 1980's company level stuff so I'm following developments, but I have yet to find a set of company level modern rules that has the right "fit" for me.     

Quote from: Norm on 25 January 2020, 04:51:33 PM
EDIT - by the way Warlord Games have just announced a price hike that percentage wise is much less conservative than Pendrakens and I wonder whether that indicates that plastic is becoming expensive and whether the tooling up / production costs to expand and maintain a wide product base is just more expensive than the traditional lead based business and if so, that might become a factor in gamers choice.

Well..... the initial outlay to produce (tool up) plastic figures/vehicles certainly used to be mind bogglingly ginormous, compared to paying for a production run of metal figures.

Though, once that's done, the profit on each plastic figure is going to be far,far greater, than the profit you might expect from a metal model.....But naturally that means you've got to be certain/mega confident that you're going to shift (probably) thousands and thousands of your plastics to get your initial outlay back.

I'm sure Leon could quote you far more up to date figures for the costs of 'making plastics' than the ones I used to know. I would imagine the costs have dropped significantly..now most (?) of the plastic figures are being made in China....But they'll still be very pricey compared 'to metals'....Otherwise EVERYONE would be doing it.

I wonder if some of the increases are due to tariffs being hiked in the 'trade war' between China and the USA.
Wasn't it anything produced in China was going to be hit ?.....Didn't matter where the actual 'toy soldier' company was based....If the product was made in China, the import duty went up.

Like I say, I'm sure Leon will be more up to speed than me.

Cheers - Phil

Battlefront make theirs in Malaysia Phil. I think PSC are using UK based producers.

Ahh...

I knew there were still a few left in the UK....I think the problem there might be with them, is that they're usually so overloaded with work, it takes for ever to get even a single figure 'done'.
Do you know where Warlord's are produced ?....They may be being done in Malaysia too.....Which would scotch the 'import duty' hike idea.

One thing that I didn't put down, was that some plastics are originally made as a three times bigger model....(Which will make the original sculpt a lot more expensive...It takes more time to make...obviously.)
I'm not sure whether this is true for all figures nowadays.
The 'Clicky Mechs', some of which I made for Wizkidz a lifetime ago, were made 'actual size'.

The nice bit about making those, was that I didn't have to worry about things like 'undercuts'.
They were just 'straight sculpts' and got chopped up (and then reassembled) in the factory in China.

Cheers - Phil

Warlord are all produced in the UK.

The classic down scale is the Revell 1/72nd Fuchs APC. It was obviously taken directly from a 1/35th scale kit with full chaiss including steering rods. You might be able to make it in 1/35, but no way in 1/72nd.

Also the newer Warlord stuff is resin, not plastic.  Hail Ceaser = Plastic, SPQR = Resin

Absolutely nothing to do with import duties, then.

Cheers - Phil

Quote from: Techno on 26 January 2020, 12:46:13 PM
Absolutely nothing to do with import duties, then.

Cheers - Phil

Raw materials?

Quote from: sultanbev on 25 January 2020, 10:39:35 AM
Vitrix now being called 12mm
https://www.beastsofwar.com/modern-warfare/victrix-upcoming-12mm-world-war-ii-game/

The Victrix article is pulled from their original Facebook post so no scale attached to it there.  Saying '12mm' isn't telling us a great deal other than the height of a figure, but even then is that 12mm overall height or 12mm to the eye?  12mm overall height at 1:144th gives a 5ft 8in person and is about right.  But if the figures turn out to be 13.5-14mm actual height then at 1:144th they're about 6ft 5in tall!  

Quote from: Raider4 on 25 January 2020, 11:24:30 AM
I believe that Pendraken's vehicles are scaled at 1/150.

Yep, 1:150th which gives a height of 5ft 8in in real terms.  It also sits us nicely among the various N-gauge scales and opens up the railway markets for scenery and buildings.

Quote from: Techno on 26 January 2020, 08:24:54 AM
Well..... the initial outlay to produce (tool up) plastic figures/vehicles certainly used to be mind bogglingly ginormous, compared to paying for a production run of metal figures.

I'm sure Leon could quote you far more up to date figures for the costs of 'making plastics' than the ones I used to know....

The prices about 10 years ago were around £40k-£50k per plastic boxset, which included all of the tooling and then your first couple of thousand boxes.  The plastic sprues themselves cost pennies, 10p-20p each to produce, so once you've got the tool made you can really make some profit.  (You've got to sell enough to cover that initial outlay though!)

These days I think the costs are down at around £7k-£10k for plastic tooling, then a similar 10p-20p per sprue to manufacture.  Also, the 3-up method has largely been replaced with digital sculpting so the tool is made from a .stl file rather than a pantograph type affair.  

Quote from: Dr Dave on 26 January 2020, 10:23:54 AM
Warlord are all produced in the UK.

They definitely produce their metal and resin at their premises in Nottingham, I've never been sure on the plastics though?  There's also a few of the larger companies testing a new resin spin-casting machine but at nearly £50k per machine I don't think it'll be taking off anytime soon!

Workshop once had an experiment to see if there was any way of getting plastic to flow through a rubber mould, while I was there.

It wasn't.

'Something' came out of the mould.....It had two arms and two legs...a head and a body....But that's about all you could say about it !

Cheers - Phil

Quote from: Leon on 26 January 2020, 11:19:40 PM
The Victrix article is pulled from their original Facebook post so no scale attached to it there.  Saying '12mm' isn't telling us a great deal other than the height of a figure, but even then is that 12mm overall height or 12mm to the eye?  12mm overall height at 1:144th gives a 5ft 8in person and is about right.  But if the figures turn out to be 13.5-14mm actual height then at 1:144th they're about 6ft 5in tall!  

On their forum page, someone who has put together a Panther model, says it is around 4.5cm long. It doesn't say whether that includes gun barrel, but I doubt it. I have the old Pendraken Panther, which is is about 4.1 or 4.2 cm long (hull only) and I am guessing the new Pendraken sculpt is slightly bigger, suggesting the vehicles at least may be closer in size.

Quote from: Techno on 27 January 2020, 06:42:54 AM
Workshop once had an experiment to see if there was any way of getting plastic to flow through a rubber mould, while I was there.

It wasn't.

'Something' came out of the mould.....It had two arms and two legs...a head and a body....But that's about all you could say about it !

Cheers - Phil

I'm about as shocked as Cap'n Renault about that.
Injection plastics aren't known for their fluidity - closer to cold honey than water.

The injection process occurs at fairly high pressures.
A proper working pressure on a rubber would would likely blow any seal before filling the details.

Plastic is also an insulator, so doesn't cool quickly.
Hence the advantages of steel moulds.

Quote from: ianrs54 on 24 January 2020, 02:26:32 PM
Probs coming up for Leon, just seen piccies of the PSC 10mm Soviets, the infantry look rather good.

Timecast are doing 10mm West Germans, apparently.