That's fine, if you play a historical scenario. However, it's not great otherwise. Any infantry with a meaty set of dice and a short range is hit but Germans get hit twice over as they have both 'Faust and 'Shrek added & costed separately. This makes them as expensive as a decent medium tank for far less utility. It's not a question of tactics, it's one of balance. The points system massively over values the amount of dice (you're paying for 13 dice of attack power) and ignores the range.

Yes, you may be able to use them from ambush but more likely you won't. What you'd be better with is ignoring the IATW and just getting a few more mid range tanks. Not exactly historical. I'd be tempted by saying "one upgrade per X stands" and allow the player to choose which stand is firing with it that turn (so it can't be "cherry picked", unless you're really unlucky on Ops Fire ), or as suggested roll 'Fausts in as a close combat upgrade and then make Bazooka/PIAT/Shreks cheaper.

Infantry *should* have them, and *should* have them along side their rifles as appropriate but atm they're massively overpriced - drop them from a couple of stands, get a proper tank. Not historical but very much the better option.

We do do know the visibility rules - they don't help. Recce can spot, field defences & buildings aren't invisible, and on the attack (even with masses of cover) you WILL have to move in the open which means even a minor stonk will cripple infantry - an AFV will drive right through that and have better fire and better protection. If you're a defender infantry will scuttle into cover and then hope not to get spotted; if they are it's just a case of getting picked off. Even if you get the anti-armour ambush off you need a company sized ambush to reliably knock out a platoon at mid to late war. You're not revealed, and dead - or at least pinned, then dead after a while.

Whilst no part of the system works in isolation this is a pretty easy case for a bit of balancing on cost - the overvalued attack power versus the under appreciated tiny range. Perhaps a huge discount on the points system for soft targets with an attack range of 10cm's or less. Would be easy as opposed to my half formed ideas about X to Y ratio on numbers of stands/points/whatever (others might have something better worked out ), as no tweaking on lists or deciding on ratios - that's up to the player.

We realised some months back that all of us had stands of infantry with a figure armed with an IATW but none of us ever bought IATW, for the points value reasons given.

We've been trying various flavours of what has become known here as "Schrödingers 'Shrek." IATW are not allocated to a stand but rather players pay for a single shot with a panzerfaust/ rpg-1 or panzershrek.

Each shot paid for is represented by an mdf chit, discarded when used.

Any eligible infantry unit can use the chit instead of firing it's intrinsic weapons.

We're still playing about with costs (currently 4pts for 'fausts and 5pts for 'shreks) and how many you can have (currently no more than the number of infantry stands you have).

We are finding that armour is much more cautious around infantry.

We tend to play with quite a bit of terrain which makes these things more valuable.

If anyone else fancies trying it and reporting back, it would be interesting to get other perspective on it.

Edited: chits are mdf not cardboard - doh! Mind like a .... what was I saying?

Brilliant name for it

"Schrödingers 'Shrek" is exactly what I'd be looking for/been trying to make up in my mind, so long as it can be done simply and easily; shouldn't be any more work than tracking suppression/hits?

yes, I like that method, it would also prevent people deliberately targeting the infantry stands with IATW on first, which does make me snarl.

Quote from: toxicpixie on 10 November 2015, 01:36:36 PM
Brilliant name for it

"Schrödingers 'Shrek" is exactly what I'd be looking for/been trying to make up in my mind, so long as it can be done simply and easily; shouldn't be any more work than tracking suppression/hits?

You have a pile of chits. When you fire an IATW you hand your opponent a chit and they keep them until game end. Every one expended is points lost. We use 20mm mdf discs with weapon type, dice used, range and pts value scribbled on in pencil, at the moment. We ever settle on exactly what we want I might ask Leon of he could do me a bag or two of counters.

At present, a stand can only use one chit per action but can burn through as many chits as the player can roll successes.

We have tried limiting it to one chit per stand per turn but watching Tom roll 6 actions for a unit in one turn and fail 6 to-hit rolls in succession is just too much fun to miss

Suggestion for revised points for infantry anti-tank weapons (point values in parentheses are per rules)

Anti-tank rifle 1/20 (attack/range) = 10 points (as per rules)
Panzerefaust 8/5 = 20 points (65 points)
Panzerschreck 6/10 = 30 points (50 points)
PIAT 4/10 =20 points (30 points)
Bazooka M1 3/10 =15 points (20 points)
Bazooka M1A1 4/10 = 20 points (30 points)
Bazooka M9 5/10 =- 25 points (40 points)

values determined by multiplying attack times range divided by two.  Thus a Panzerfaust which has eight times the attack value but only a quarter of the range of an anti-tank rifle would be double the cost of the anti-tank rifle.  Possibly still a bit expensive, though if the point value for anti-tank rifles were reduced to 5 then all the others would also be halved (5 or 10 points for Bazooka M1?)

Of the cuff that looks much more reasonable. Would it be bad to say if equipped with two can only fire one per turn, and just pay for the more expensive? Otherwise Faust plus Schrek is still the cost of another infantry stand...

Quote from: sane max on 10 November 2015, 01:52:10 PM
yes, I like that method, it would also prevent people deliberately targeting the infantry stands with IATW on first, which does make me snarl.

Isn't the counterpoint to that though that if you use the 'chits' method, it means your 'fausts are always miraculously where you need them to be?

Quote from: Luddite on 11 November 2015, 05:43:20 PM
(...) your 'fausts are always miraculously where you need them to be? (...)

Yes. I really don't want another "rules for the germans" as I wrote. I'm fed up with too many rules where the germans were invicible.    We should be very careful when changing rules...

( I know bazookas were written above, but  ... you know what I mean )

We felt that there were enough Russian A/T rifles, panzerfausts, panzershreks, rpg-1s etc on battlefields that having them where you want them wasn't too much of a problem.

Limited testing done to date does suggest that, for our group at least, they are often either expended too quickly chasing that last hit that will kill a target or saved for a future the force doesn't have.

Stats are decidedly skewed by Tom's rolling 36 dice in batches of six and failing to get one result higher than a three

TBH once they're available in the the real world, everyone should probably have them free except under exceptional circumstances anyway.

I tend to add them to one stand per Company, eg 1 base in 3 for the Brits. I find this works well enough and follows examples I've read of in Normandy, where they were kept back and then distributed to units as required. Obviously this didn't happen all of the time but it works for me. As for points, I often don't bother with them as my 'system' obviates the need for it in this case.

The chits idea would model that nicely at an appropriate level of command for the game (ie CO looks at plan, ground and enemy and says "anti- armour weapons HERE and NOW", and prevents them getting sniped off - although you could knock a chit off per lost infantry stand, perhaps, if you're saying each gives the battlegroup more than one?

If an infantry base represents a platoon (about 50 men), would it not be better simply to factor in a 5cm AT attack to the basic infantry profile in the relevant time periods?

Keep it simple?

As to the points costs, they certainly need looking at.

I guess late war, Volksturm infantry will have only those attacks! 

Quote from: toxicpixie on 12 November 2015, 08:56:53 AM
... although you could knock a chit off per lost infantry stand, perhaps, if you're saying each gives the battlegroup more than one?

Ooh! I like that idea. I'll try that next time we play. Might modify it slightly to be that you can't have more chits than infantry stands. We'll see.