I recently ordered PPW16 described as C61 6-pdr. On the gun carriage they have two half boxes, which I take to represent nets, and diagonal bars running from the wheels to the side of the carriage. From pictures I have seen these are the C64 4-pdrs as from other pictures the 6-pdr had neither nets or the diagonal bars. I have mentioned this to Leon and he has suggested I raise the question on the forum.

Any advice/answers gentlemen.

Chad

If they are the same as the1870 6 pounders, the box is a seat either side of the front of the gun where two gunner sat while limbered?

Lemmey

I don't know. If that is correct, then they would appear to be identical to the C64 4-pdr. That leaves me with the problem of what to use for the C61 6-pdr.

Chad

Picture of 4pdr

The 6 pounders have boxes, the 4 pounders don't.

6pdr. No diagonal bars

Easiest reference is - shock horror - Wikipedia.!  Look under Krupp Artillery, and then C61. You will find four pictures of the 6pdr. As ML says they have boxes, and foot rests,  but the other differences from the 4pdr are the bell at the end of the barrel , and the round rather than square breech. The Hessian artillery monument at Froeschwiller has the barrels of both 4pdr and 6pdr guns set into the tower to act as frames for the glassless windows!  

Mollinary

*Does happy dance because he got something right*

Mollinary

Have tried but cannot find them. Can you give me the link.

Chad

Hi Chad,

I just google "Krupp Artillery".  About the third result was commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/category:Krupp_artillery   Then I looked under C61.

Showed four pictures.

Hope this helps,

Mollinary

Mollinary

Got it. I posted one of those pictures above, but to me it bears little resemblance to the C61 in PPW16 which has the bars either side of the carriage joined diagonally to the wheel support and what look like open boxes/half seats either side of the barrel. Given the diagonal bars and the 'seats/boxes', it looks more like the 4pdr picture I also posted above.

I will have to ask Leon to send me a sample C64.

Chad

Mollinary

I am afraid I am not yet convinced. I now believe PPW16 has a 4pdr carriage with 6pdr barrels. I also looked at some PPW15 I painted last year as 4pdrs. From the photos and your comment on the barrel, I think these are 4pdr barrels with a 6pdr carriage.

Chad

I have swapped barrels and carriages when I read a couple of years ago that only the 4 pdrs had the seats for gunners.

Hi Chad, 

The difference in the Pendraken guns is in the barrels, not the carriages. As you point out, the carriage for the six pounder may not be 100% accurate, but I don't know of anyone else who even does a six pounder in 10mm. Magister Militum only do a four pounder as their "Krupp Artillery". Pendraken do produce two carriages, one with the seats, one without.  As far as I recall, counter intuitively, the horse artillery does not have the seats because all the gunners are mounted?!   So both carriages are suitable for four pounders. To re-produce the 6pdr carriage shown in the Saarlouis photo you could take the one without the seat, cut off the struts, and add a couple of boxes?   A bit of a poser, really!

Mollinary

Mollinary

The PPW15s I painted last year do have a different carriage to the PPW16s. So I have ordered some of the former and will switch the barrels as Leman has done.

Chad

PS Google Prussian Horse Artillery 1866 and have a look at the photos on the Victoriaswars.com site

Chad,

I am getting more and more puzzled as we whizz around the net. Firstly why does googling Prussian Horse Artillery 1866 get us photos of a Krupp gun taken from the Egyptians at Tel- El-Kebir?  In 1866 the Horse Batteries were equipped with the light 12pdr smoothbore shell guns!  The gun in the photos looks very much like a bronze C64 to me. 

Mollinary

OK.  I think I have found an authoritative source, at least for 1866, which should put most of this to rest. Interestingly, I think it highlights the dangers of us trying to generalise from individual photos on the web, particularly when they deal with a period in which weapons were changing and being adapted year on year, and many variants existed.  My source is "Memorandum on The Prussian Army in Relation to the Campaign of 1866". By Lt Col Reilly CB, RA, published in 1867. He was sent by the British as an observer to the army, but arrived after the fighting. He spent his time gaining an intimate knowledge of how the Prussians fought, and finding out details of their equipment.  I started this research for other purposes, and much of that should come out in Holdfast's and my book on Koniggratz, due out next year, but on to the artillery:

I) each corps had "4 batteries horse artillery - 12-Pdrs. (Not rifled.)
                              4        ".       Field artillery - 6-Pdrs. (Rifled)
                              6.       ".       Field artillery - 4-Pdrs. (Rifled)
                              2.       ".       Field artillery - 12-Pdrs (not rifled)
"Such, at least , was the equipment during the late campaign, differing from that laid down in the Regulations."

6Pdr guns.  "The gun carriage is of wood.......... The axle tree is made of cast steel with horizontal arms.  There are two seats on it, and these are furnished with fixed foot rests, handles covered with leather, and a back of wire network."    So, they should have seats!  Now, should they also have supporting bars?  Well Reilly is silent on this matter, but does include a detailed drawing of the carriage of a 4pdr.  On it the bars are shown, and clearly labelled as "Rear stays of axle seats".    This might be taken to imply that similar stays existed on the 6pdr carriage, as it also has the seats.   

Hope this helps.

Mollinary

TBH not really, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist about it. And anyway my guns have been modelled for 1870, when horse artillery had converted to the 4pdr. At least I can tell the difference between a 6pdr and a 4pdr whern they are on the table.

Now, can anyone help an aged amnesiac, and tell me where I picked up this idea that HA 4pdrs didn't have seats? I remember asking Leon for seatless carriages after I discovered it, but cannot for the life of me remember where I got it from!     

Mollinary

Leon, did I tell you?   

Quote from: mollinary on 13 August 2015, 04:28:38 PM
Now, can anyone help an aged amnesiac, and tell me where I picked up this idea that HA 4pdrs didn't have seats? I remember asking Leon for seatless carriages after I discovered it, but cannot for the life of me remember where I got it from!     

Leon, did I tell you?   

Possibly?  I've been looking through a lot of old emails trying to find the original conversations, but I'm sure you gave us info on them.