Its a while since I did BKC lists.

But as far as I remember it's just to do with selecting the forces - there are no in game differences. There are certain limits for support and certain for AT. Some units fall into both categories.

The limits in BKC seem a bit odd at first, but actually work quite well at representing the actual TOE of the various forces within a points framework.

Quote from: fred    12df on 03 March 2015, 08:17:18 PM
Its a while since I did BKC lists.

But as far as I remember it's just to do with selecting the forces - there are no in game differences. There are certain limits for support and certain for AT. Some units fall into both categories.

The limits in BKC seem a bit odd at first, but actually work quite well at representing the actual TOE of the various forces within a points framework.

They're beyond odd, I don't get it 

Quote from: getagrip on 03 March 2015, 08:13:34 PM
Starting off with mid Eastern front German / Russian.

Can anyone explain what the difference is (rules wise) between a Pak 40 as support and the same as an anti tank unit?

It reflects the way the German army actually deployed the guns. Some allocated to infantry units and some as separate units in their own right.

As fred says, once you get used to the way they work they do tend to push you to use historical(-ish) forces.

I'm beginning to get the feeling BKC is not as complicated as you imagine it is

Quote from: Ithoriel on 03 March 2015, 08:25:54 PM
It reflects the way the German army actually deployed the guns. Some allocated to infantry units and some as separate units in their own right.

As fred says, once you get used to the way they work they do tend to push you to use historical(-ish) forces.

I'm beginning to get the feeling BKC is not as complicated as you imagine it is

I'm okay with that but "in game" whatdifference does it make?

Does support have to stay with the infantry and,  if not,  why not?

And, if the support at AT can go where it wishes,  why not just incorporate it into AT rather than a separate category?

Also,  you can never actually reach some of the maximum troop numbers per 1000 points.

No, not confusing at all! 

Support are meant to play with the infantry BUT in the game, the German doctrine allows you to form "command groups" on the go, so you don't need to allocate command units to specific units.

If I can give you an advice about mid russians, they are weak due to poor command. You need off table arty, but plan the fire missions, as the poor command of the scouts won't call anything.

Quote from: fred    12df on 03 March 2015, 08:17:18 PM
there are no in game differences.

Quote from: getagrip on 03 March 2015, 08:36:14 PM
I'm okay with that but "in game" whatdifference does it make?

I think you are over complicating this. In game its dead simple

It seems complicated because the real army organisation was complicated.

Thanks guys,  great advice.

Some of the rules just seem nonsensical eg: 8 panthers per 1000 @ 215 points each.  Err.....

Quote from: getagrip on 03 March 2015, 08:36:14 PM
I'm okay with that but "in game" whatdifference does it make?

Does support have to stay with the infantry and,  if not,  why not?

And, if the support at AT can go where it wishes,  why not just incorporate it into AT rather than a separate category?

Also,  you can never actually reach some of the maximum troop numbers per 1000 points.

No, not confusing at all! 

Makes no difference "in game." Any more than it did in real life - in that infantry and support weapons together provide mutual .... support!

They're separate because the Germans had them as separate. An infantry battalion would normally have three rifle companies plus mortars, machine guns and anti-tank guns. Further up the tree there would be a whole unit of anti-tank guns attached. The lists are just trying to nudge gamers into fielding something historical rather than fielding more of some supposed wunderwaffe than the Nazis ever managed to produce

Unreachable maximums are not unreachable if you field, as we sometimes do, forces that are not exact multiples of 1000 points. Playing a 1750 point game you are still only able to field 9 T34s for example.

Cheers Ithoriel.

I'm trying to avoid the uber army but still have a good game.  Would have been nice if they'd included some sample deployments though 

QuoteCan anyone explain what the difference is (rules wise) between a Pak 40 as support and the same as an anti tank unit?

The support unit is the PAK 40 that was allocated at Battalion level, so integral to that Battalion. Other PAK 40s that are classed as AT units are in effect assets that are given to your battlegroup from Regimental or Divisional level assets. If you look on page 44 at the bottom under 'Limit' it explains it a bit more in terms of the rulebook lists. Hope this helps explain things?

To give an example of a German Battalion circa 1944, the following will serve as a useful guide in game terms:

1 x CO - Battlegroup commander

then each Battalion having:
2 x HQ
1 x FAO
1 x Recce unit (your choice as to the types on offer)
9 x Infantry units(3 with panzerfaust or panzershreck upgrade)
3 x MG units
1 x ATG Support unit
3 x 81mm Mortar units
1 x 120mm Mortar unit
1 x 75mm Infantry Gun unit

You could then have the following 'attached' units, that may be from Battalion, Regimental or Divisional level:
3 x Panzer units (Stug III)
3 x Panzer units (Pzkpfw IV)

In short after you have the core Battalions as shown above, you can add in artillery, tank and ATG units as you see fit to suit the scenario for each game. The more you learn about these 'core' organisations, the easier the lists and the period will become.

As always, feel free to ask for more advice.

Basic German infantry unit - HQ, 9 Infantry stands, Mortar stand, MG stand, A/T gun of your choice.

The workhorse German tank in 1943 is the PzIV (75mm lang). If you need to save points go for the PzIII (50mm lang) or if you want some more punch use Panthers or, if you have points to burn, Tigers.

The basic off-table artillery piece for the Germans is the 105mm. You'll need an FAO to get best use out of these.

Recce is always worth having. My recce infantry always seem to last longer than their mounted or armoured equivalents.

As and when you have a little experience under your belt you can add in more basic troops and all the lovely exotic stuff (that never lives up to expectations ) like aircraft, goliaths, etc., etc.

Does that help any?

Ithoriel,  Steve,  that's awesome stuff. 

As a newbie to the "proper" stuff (lifelong fantasy gamer) I want to get it close to "right."

Thanks again gents, gotta love this forum. 

I would use the lists as a vague guide as some of the maximums are a bit unrealistic

Ie. In the Belgian 1940 lists they you can field 3 ACG1 tanks. Only 12 of these were actually delivered and I think only 9 saw combat . There at least twice as many of the T13's than T15's avaliabe, yet the lists give you three of each.

Use them as a guide they work for that. Like all pointed lists there are quirks, but overall the lists and the rules give a good game.

Yeah thanks Orcs, I came to that conclusion and have bashed together my own forces.   

Quite frankly lists don't really matter because:

a)  I'm not a power gamer;
b)  I like the slog between the lighter stuff and infantry;
c)  They don't really matter!

All good