Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 05:32:09 PM
The intent is eight units, ie battalions, not eight bases. So that means up to about 8,000 men in a kilometre square. If you are only allowing three of your regiments per 10"square you are staying true to the ratio, if you are allowing eight regiments in a10" square you are cramming 24,000 men in the same space! In the base rules each hit is not a battalion, it is a base, or one strength point, if you like.  A battalion can have  up to six strength points in the normal game ( a Prussian Guard battalion with four bases and two officer figures), but most Prussians have five, and French four. In the base game one gun model represents a battery, so if this is the same in your game, are you understating the effect of infantry fire if you only role one die per regiment as opposed to the one die per battalion intended.  Ultimately the key question is not are you playing the rules as intended, but are they delivering what you want, in a way which seems realistic to you.  I love their simplicity, and the way they make you concentrate on big decisions.  The most important decision in our games is when you move from a manoeuvre formation (March column) to a fighting formation (line) as your manoeuvrability is then extremely limited for the rest of the game. Keeping reserves in March column is absolutely vital to being able to exploit a breakthrough.  I assume you use markers to indicate this part of the rules as well?

Mollinary

Hmmmm, I'm honestly perplexed lol.  You said that 8 regiments would equate to 24,000 men...but it is my understanding (which may very well be wrong) that prussian regiments were around 1k men, and French were around 750 men.  That would be around 8k men correct?  Perhaps my concept of Batallion vs Regiment is skewed as some armies used them interchangeably...but I really thought these numbers were regimental.  We are definately doing artillery as a battery per stand...so we are all good there.  I guess the artillery is probably skewed a bit then compared to infantry fire though. 

So here is how we run it...

let me know how different the rules are intended to read, as I think I'm missing some detail somehwere...we have a generic French regiment with a Combat Effectiveness of 4 and has three hits before it is removed (and we allow the regimental officer to be removed as a free hit...so really it can absorb 4 hits).  It must roll its CE to hit a Prussian regiment.  If it takes two hits, the owner removes the officer and one hit from the unit.  So it is now at 2 hits and a combat effectiveness now of 3.  It must hit on a three to cause a casualty now. 

Or we can run it the same way, but getting to roll the number of dice equal to its current hits left.  (does this similuate closely the way it would work for batallions...thinking that there were about three batallions in a regiment?) 

Ok...thats enough questions in thie one...probably more to come. 

Quote from: dedonta on 05 December 2013, 05:56:08 PM
Hmmmm, I'm honestly perplexed lol.  You said that 8 regiments would equate to 24,000 men...but it is my understanding (which may very well be wrong) that prussian regiments were around 1k men, and French were around 750 men.  That would be around 8k men correct?  Perhaps my concept of Batallion vs Regiment is skewed as some armies used them interchangeably...but I really thought these numbers were regimental.  We are definately doing artillery as a battery per stand...so we are all good there.  I guess the artillery is probably skewed a bit then compared to infantry fire though.

I understand the confusion between battalions and regiments, mainly brought about them being largely interchangeable terms in the ACW, and the British army having something of a tradition of single battalion regiments.  This is not the case with the Austrian, Prussian and French armies of the mid eighteenth century.   All of them had an organisation which deployed regiments containing three battalions in the field. Two such regiments made a brigade, so four regiments made a division and, in the case of the Prussian and Austrians eight regiments made a full corps, about 24,000 men.  With French battalions being smaller, a regiment could be 1,800 - 2,400 strong.   Light troops, Jagers and Chasseurs a Pied, we're deployed in single battalions of approximately the same strength as their line brethren. Regarding artillery to infantry ratios,  you would have an average of about 6-8 batteries to every 12 battalions.   I will need to think about you other questions/examples, and respond later.  That said, at first sight it looks like you have it about right.

Mollinary

Mollinary,
Here is an example of what we are using...
2nd Infantry Division (General Abel Douay)
1st Brigade (Gen. Pelletier de Montmarie)
16th Chasseurs Battalion
50th Line Infantry Regiment
74th Line Infantry Regiment

2nd Brigade (Gen. Pelle)
78th Line Infantry Regiment
1st Regiment of Turcos

2nd Division Artillery (Lt. Col. Cauvet)
2 Foot Artillery Batteries (4-lb. guns)
1 Mitrailleuse Battery

So in this case...we have been assuming that each of these regiments consisted of rougly 1k men...so only fielding 5k men in all for the division...in hindsight that sounds very low for a division.  But I have never read anything that said a regiment consisted of more than 1000 men in a regiment (perhaps its becaue the American use of regiments was as such...1k men in a full strength regiment).  If I am wrong and these regiments should be representing thousands of men each...then we need to roll more dice and have less stands in each square.

Greetings

Abel Douay's division would have one battalion of Chasseurs (in its case around 600+ men) and three battalions for each of the infantry regiments.  I don't have the strength returns but Mollinary may.  Generally French battalions at the opening of the campaign were often around the 600 men mark because of problems getting reservists up and their book strength was 6 companies of 130 men plus battalion/regimental staff etc I think.  If I recall 1st Corp's units were better up to strength than other formations.

The Prussians have stronger battalions (typically around 1000 before the first actions).  I've got the German General Staff history vol I which gives the initial regimental strengths and losses.

Regards

Edward

Hi D,

I don't have my sources with me, as I am working on a contract in Belgium until the weekend.  As the campaign developed, strengths obviously changed, and by the winter many German battalions were substantially reduced. Paradoxically, many later French battalions in the republican period were actually stronger. But when the war began, in the early battles, Prussian battalions were 900-1000 strong, and a typical Prussian infantry brigade of two regiments would number in the region of 6,000 men.  A full corps, with its guns and attendant cavalry, would be in the region of 30,000 men.   Just to complicate matters, many Bavarian Brigades only contained five line battalions, often with an extra jäger battalion. If I remember rightly each Wurttemberg brigade had four line battalions and a jäger battalion, and the Hessian regiments had only two battalions each. But the battalions, which were the building blocks of the army, we're all roughly the same size. For your example, if all of Douay's thirteen battalions are present, one would expect a strength of between about 8 and 10,000. Remembering French battalions are substantially smaller than their Prussian opponents.

Mollinary

Just to add grist to the mill, one of the regiments in 2nd Corps was at full strength as its depot was Metz. Believe its 42em? Not got my sources to hand to check though!

So as we are playing it at the Regimental level...a generic Prussian regiment would be around 3000 men, and a French Regiment around 2000.  And if I were to keep it at this scale and trying to keep it as close to the authors intent...I really should have a regiment have a hit point per 250 men...so in the case of a Prussian regiment...12 hits...does that sound correct?  And a French regiment around 8 hits?  Then on top of that they should be rolling more dice to represent the number of batallions in the regiment.  The mass makes a lot more sense now...I was truly getting N.American organization concepts confused with European ones.   

I guess in the long run it all equates out...just need to lower the number of regiments deployed in a square.  I'll have to go back and read the rules to see where I got confused in organization

This would also help clarify our moral issues...divisions were getting battered and still ok on moral.  10 hits to reduce 1 level of moral isn't much when a regiment only takes 3 vs the intended multiple stands in a battalion.  Seeing as most of my regiments are 1/3 the number of hits as the batallion method, i may just reduce the hits needed by 1/3 as well...so remove a moral point for every 3 hits.  Things would get much more dicey much quicker.  Does that make sense or have I thought too much into that?

I think the conversion is relatively simple, if you want to change and are not completely satisfied with how you are playing it at present.  If a stand is a regiment, rather than a battalion, then multiply by three the strength points a battalion is allocated in the basic rules. So, a standard Prussian battalion has four, 250 man, troop bases, and an officer base.  So five strength points against which it tests to move out of cover, fire, or for its morale in close combat. Your regiment would therefore start with fifteen points. It would throw three fire dice, each against a base of five.  If it had taken four hits, as hits are distributed evenly amongst battalions (no battalion in a square may take a second hit before all battalions in the square have one hit) then it would have three dice, two throwing against fours, and one against threes. A French Regiment would start with twelve points (three battalions each of three troop bases of 250, and an officer base). At full strength, they would throw three dice against a base of four.   If they had suffered four hits, they would have two throwing against threes, and one for twos.  The absolutely key fact to remember is no more than four units ( ie battalions, or dice, not regiments) (counting batteries as half units) may fire out of any face of a square at one time.  Hope this isn't too confusing.    More or less, it means that a standard Prussian division of four regiments, four batteries, and potentially a Jäger battalion, could deploy in two adjacent 10" squares.  The two squares would each contain two regiments (six units) and two batteries (one unit), and the eight unit in one square would be the Jäger battalion.  To be fully consistent, however it is based, the Jäger would only throw one die, not three!   Clear?   

Mollinary

Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 07:45:30 PM
I think the conversion is relatively simple, if you want to change and are not completely satisfied with how you are playing it at present.  If a stand is a regiment, rather than a battalion, then multiply by three the strength points a battalion is allocated in the basic rules. So, a standard Prussian battalion has four, 250 man, troop bases, and an officer base.  So five strength points against which it tests to move out of cover, fire, or for its morale in close combat. Your regiment would therefore start with fifteen points. It would throw three fire dice, each against a base of five.  If it had taken four hits, as hits are distributed evenly amongst battalions (no battalion in a square may take a second hit before all battalions in the square have one hit) then it would have three dice, two throwing against fours, and one against threes. A French Regiment would start with twelve points (three battalions each of three troop bases of 250, and an officer base). At full strength, they would throw three dice against a base of four.   If they had suffered four hits, they would have two throwing against threes, and one for twos.  The absolutely key fact to remember is no more than four units ( ie battalions, or dice, not regiments) (counting batteries as half units) may fire out of any face of a square at one time.  Hope this isn't too confusing.    More or less, it means that a standard Prussian division of four regiments, four batteries, and potentially a Jäger battalion, could deploy in two adjacent 10" squares.  The two squares would each contain two regiments (six units) and two batteries (one unit), and the eight unit in one square would be the Jäger battalion.  To be fully consistent, however it is based, the Jäger would only throw one die, not three!   Clear?   

Mollinary

YES!!  WOOHOO...it all makes sense now lol...thank you.  I will contemplate converting over to the three dice attack.  I would need to redo all my tags, but more dice may be more fun lol.  I'll see if the group wants to move that way or just continue as we are and limit the number of regiments in a square to 3 w/ 2 batteries..and only allow 2 regiments to fire out a side (it would be a little off in numbers of battalions but be close enough).  I would then cut the moral checks to a moral point per 3 hits taken.  Either way...its definitely workable at the Regimental level where we want to be...just not too interested in the battalion level...too much micro managing when we are trying to play at the higher level of command.  As the Corp commander I don't think you'd much care about the companies and battalions...just whether that darn regiment was plugging the hole or pushing through lol. 

Thanks for the help!!!

One more question lol 

how many hits should my artillery be able to sustain at my current status...should I be cutting it to 1/3 as well because I have about 1/3 for my infantry (1/3 compared to the authors intent)?

Glad to help!   But a final point.  As you want to be a corps commander, I think you should concentrate on the brigade as your basic manoeuvre unit.  That contains two regiments, not three, and should be the core of what goes in a 10" square. As soon as you are deploying three regiments into a square you are messing up the basic command structure, and splitting brigades. So, if it were me (and I emphasise it is your choice for what feels right to you) I would limit it to two regiments deployable in a square plus supporting units.  By the way, I am still interested as to how you mark whether a unit is in march or combat formation?


Mollinary

Quote from: dedonta on 05 December 2013, 08:33:36 PM
One more question lol 

how many hits should my artillery be able to sustain at my current status...should I be cutting it to 1/3 as well because I have about 1/3 for my infantry (1/3 compared to the authors intent)?

If you have one model per battery, as in the basic rules, and they are rolling one die per  model, then  they should sustain hits exactly as in the basic rules. If one model represents two batteries, then it should roll two fire dice, and take twice the hits as in the basic rules, deducted equally from the fire dice. 

Mollinary

good point on the brigade per square...I like that and will implement that.

oh ya...to mark column vs deployed into battle formation we simply put the CO on the stand with the infantry, then when they have deployed he is moved to the rear of the stand or front...but off the stand itself.  simple and easy to see.  I have given all my regiments a CO in our games...if we do the campaign and there is a weaker unit, i'll simply lower the starting strength but leave the CO so we can still use him to mark formation and use it as a casualty (from what I gather in the rules, that's all the CO is used for anyway).

So for artillery, its one battery and fires one die in our game as well...however we are giving it three hits...that gives it a lot of staying power compared to regiments (who also have 3 hits).  I'm thinking they should be more fragile than the infantry...what do you think?  Wouldn't be an issue if I change the infantry to have as many hits as intended (12 to 15 per regiment), but if we leave it the way we have played it this past month the artillery needs to be adjusted don't you think?

Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round.  To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve).  On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.

Mollinary

PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!

M

Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round.  To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve).  On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.

Mollinary

PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!

M

another great suggestion...thanks!

Quote from: mollinary on 05 December 2013, 08:58:56 PM
Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round.  To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve).  On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.

Mollinary

PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!

M

Photos look amazing!!!!  What are the dials you talk about in the post to help with the bookkeeping?  can't really see them in the photos

I am going to run these two options by the guys to see how we should address the scale issues that I've discovered with your help...which do you think works best:

Option 1:

We leave everything as is for labels (troop strengths and CE), but we
•limit the number of men per square mile to one brigade or 2 regiments with their artillery assets.  In essence you'd be able to field around 8 hits worth of strength in 1 square mile (this is more in line with the rules as they were written...but they had it broken down to battalions...and I don't want that kind of micro managing in our game)
•You'd continue to only be able to fire 4 points worth out of a single edge of the square...so one regiment and an artillery stand.  We'd see the same effects, but it would force us to use reserves as you couldn't bring an entire corps up into one or two squares like we did the last two games. 
•Moral for the corps would stay the same, but you'd deduct a moral point for every 3 hits (as it is all the numbers I originally had are 1/3 of what the author intended...so the moral should be adjusted likewise)

Simple fix but not many dice to roll lol



Option 2 (more dice to throw)

For this I'd need to redo the labels, and we'd keep a bit more 'bookkeeping'. 
•Each regiment would get three attack dice to represent on die per battalion in the regiment.  You'd still only be able to roll four dice per edge of the square
•limit to a square is one brigade plus assets (so 2 regiments and a couple guns)
•Hit points are no longer only 3!!  Regiments now have 3 battalions x their CE - so the Prussians would have around 15 hits/regiment, and French 12/regiment...more staying power in theory, but you're getting hit with more dice
•Your CE would adjust just like we did this past week...but it would mean dividing your hits by 3 (because you have 3 battalions in each regiment...and they are absorbing hits evenly below the surface).  So a regiment at 15 hits and a CE of 5 still hits on 5's with the three dice.  Then after it has taken 3 hits and is down to 12 total, would need to hit on a new CE of 4.  etc...
•Moral would stay the same...1 point deducted for every 10 hits


Appreciate your feedback my friend!!

I think either of your options would probably work, and it is entirely down to your crew as to which they would prefer. The second option seems to me closer to the original rules intention, but what is more important is how it plays for you.  

Just to take the stacking limit thing to its conclusion. If you keep your current number of batteries in option two, you could deploy up to four in the square with your brigade, as they count as half a unit each.  Bernie did this to allow the creation of the mass batteries which existed in real life. They also fire out of the side of a square as half units, so you can actually roll up to eight artillery dice out of a side, if there are eight or more batteries in the square!  For cavalry the regiment is the unit, and so up to eight regiments can be deployed in a square, so , for example, you could probably get the Prussian Guard Cavalry division in a square.

Enjoyed this exchange, reminded me how much I enjoy these rules!

Mollinary

PS the dials are the circles with Prussian, Saxon, Hessian, Guard, or French flags on them which you should just be able to see in every square occupied by troops. The post is from September 2010, by the way, I just realised there is another Gravelotte St Privat on the board, impressively played out on a large photographic map.   In each of the circles a wedge is missing and the dial shows through. You simply move it show the current casualty number. I just used them. To keep track of casualties as caused, and before base removal. You could use them instead of book keeping. I know that there is a British manufacturer which produces mdf dials which go up to 12 which would probably do the trick.

M