To the Last Gaiter Button Bat Rep

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Just to add grist to the mill, one of the regiments in 2nd Corps was at full strength as its depot was Metz. Believe its 42em? Not got my sources to hand to check though!

[dedonta]

So as we are playing it at the Regimental level...a generic Prussian regiment would be around 3000 men, and a French Regiment around 2000.  And if I were to keep it at this scale and trying to keep it as close to the authors intent...I really should have a regiment have a hit point per 250 men...so in the case of a Prussian regiment...12 hits...does that sound correct?  And a French regiment around 8 hits?  Then on top of that they should be rolling more dice to represent the number of batallions in the regiment.  The mass makes a lot more sense now...I was truly getting N.American organization concepts confused with European ones.   

I guess in the long run it all equates out...just need to lower the number of regiments deployed in a square.  I'll have to go back and read the rules to see where I got confused in organization

This would also help clarify our moral issues...divisions were getting battered and still ok on moral.  10 hits to reduce 1 level of moral isn't much when a regiment only takes 3 vs the intended multiple stands in a battalion.  Seeing as most of my regiments are 1/3 the number of hits as the batallion method, i may just reduce the hits needed by 1/3 as well...so remove a moral point for every 3 hits.  Things would get much more dicey much quicker.  Does that make sense or have I thought too much into that?

[mollinary]

I think the conversion is relatively simple, if you want to change and are not completely satisfied with how you are playing it at present.  If a stand is a regiment, rather than a battalion, then multiply by three the strength points a battalion is allocated in the basic rules. So, a standard Prussian battalion has four, 250 man, troop bases, and an officer base.  So five strength points against which it tests to move out of cover, fire, or for its morale in close combat. Your regiment would therefore start with fifteen points. It would throw three fire dice, each against a base of five.  If it had taken four hits, as hits are distributed evenly amongst battalions (no battalion in a square may take a second hit before all battalions in the square have one hit) then it would have three dice, two throwing against fours, and one against threes. A French Regiment would start with twelve points (three battalions each of three troop bases of 250, and an officer base). At full strength, they would throw three dice against a base of four.   If they had suffered four hits, they would have two throwing against threes, and one for twos.  The absolutely key fact to remember is no more than four units ( ie battalions, or dice, not regiments) (counting batteries as half units) may fire out of any face of a square at one time.  Hope this isn't too confusing.    More or less, it means that a standard Prussian division of four regiments, four batteries, and potentially a Jäger battalion, could deploy in two adjacent 10" squares.  The two squares would each contain two regiments (six units) and two batteries (one unit), and the eight unit in one square would be the Jäger battalion.  To be fully consistent, however it is based, the Jäger would only throw one die, not three!   Clear?   

Mollinary

[dedonta]

I think the conversion is relatively simple, if you want to change and are not completely satisfied with how you are playing it at present.  If a stand is a regiment, rather than a battalion, then multiply by three the strength points a battalion is allocated in the basic rules. So, a standard Prussian battalion has four, 250 man, troop bases, and an officer base.  So five strength points against which it tests to move out of cover, fire, or for its morale in close combat. Your regiment would therefore start with fifteen points. It would throw three fire dice, each against a base of five.  If it had taken four hits, as hits are distributed evenly amongst battalions (no battalion in a square may take a second hit before all battalions in the square have one hit) then it would have three dice, two throwing against fours, and one against threes. A French Regiment would start with twelve points (three battalions each of three troop bases of 250, and an officer base). At full strength, they would throw three dice against a base of four.   If they had suffered four hits, they would have two throwing against threes, and one for twos.  The absolutely key fact to remember is no more than four units ( ie battalions, or dice, not regiments) (counting batteries as half units) may fire out of any face of a square at one time.  Hope this isn't too confusing.    More or less, it means that a standard Prussian division of four regiments, four batteries, and potentially a Jäger battalion, could deploy in two adjacent 10" squares.  The two squares would each contain two regiments (six units) and two batteries (one unit), and the eight unit in one square would be the Jäger battalion.  To be fully consistent, however it is based, the Jäger would only throw one die, not three!   Clear?   

Mollinary

YES!!  WOOHOO...it all makes sense now lol...thank you.  I will contemplate converting over to the three dice attack.  I would need to redo all my tags, but more dice may be more fun lol.  I'll see if the group wants to move that way or just continue as we are and limit the number of regiments in a square to 3 w/ 2 batteries..and only allow 2 regiments to fire out a side (it would be a little off in numbers of battalions but be close enough).  I would then cut the moral checks to a moral point per 3 hits taken.  Either way...its definitely workable at the Regimental level where we want to be...just not too interested in the battalion level...too much micro managing when we are trying to play at the higher level of command.  As the Corp commander I don't think you'd much care about the companies and battalions...just whether that darn regiment was plugging the hole or pushing through lol. 

Thanks for the help!!!

[dedonta]

One more question lol 

how many hits should my artillery be able to sustain at my current status...should I be cutting it to 1/3 as well because I have about 1/3 for my infantry (1/3 compared to the authors intent)?

[mollinary]

Glad to help!   But a final point.  As you want to be a corps commander, I think you should concentrate on the brigade as your basic manoeuvre unit.  That contains two regiments, not three, and should be the core of what goes in a 10" square. As soon as you are deploying three regiments into a square you are messing up the basic command structure, and splitting brigades. So, if it were me (and I emphasise it is your choice for what feels right to you) I would limit it to two regiments deployable in a square plus supporting units.  By the way, I am still interested as to how you mark whether a unit is in march or combat formation?


Mollinary

[mollinary]

One more question lol 

how many hits should my artillery be able to sustain at my current status...should I be cutting it to 1/3 as well because I have about 1/3 for my infantry (1/3 compared to the authors intent)?

If you have one model per battery, as in the basic rules, and they are rolling one die per  model, then  they should sustain hits exactly as in the basic rules. If one model represents two batteries, then it should roll two fire dice, and take twice the hits as in the basic rules, deducted equally from the fire dice. 

Mollinary

[dedonta]

good point on the brigade per square...I like that and will implement that.

oh ya...to mark column vs deployed into battle formation we simply put the CO on the stand with the infantry, then when they have deployed he is moved to the rear of the stand or front...but off the stand itself.  simple and easy to see.  I have given all my regiments a CO in our games...if we do the campaign and there is a weaker unit, i'll simply lower the starting strength but leave the CO so we can still use him to mark formation and use it as a casualty (from what I gather in the rules, that's all the CO is used for anyway).

So for artillery, its one battery and fires one die in our game as well...however we are giving it three hits...that gives it a lot of staying power compared to regiments (who also have 3 hits).  I'm thinking they should be more fragile than the infantry...what do you think?  Wouldn't be an issue if I change the infantry to have as many hits as intended (12 to 15 per regiment), but if we leave it the way we have played it this past month the artillery needs to be adjusted don't you think?

[mollinary]

Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round.  To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve).  On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.

Mollinary

PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!

M

[dedonta]

Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round.  To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve).  On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.

Mollinary

PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!

M

another great suggestion...thanks!

[dedonta]

Yes, sorry, didn't understand your question first time round.  To avoid complexity, I would be inclined to keep the number of hits per battery the same, but reduce the number of batteries you deploy. So a Prussian Corps might have five batteries, one with each brigade and one reserve (or possibly two reserve).  On the CO figures, you are right that in the basic rules they represent the morale/quality of units over and above their actual strength, they have no command role as such. The important figures for moving and controlling troops are the brigade, division and corps commanders.

Mollinary

PS if you look back on this topic for a thread titled something like "Gravelotte St Privat" you'll find some photos of what our games look like. It will be three or four years ago now!

M

Photos look amazing!!!!  What are the dials you talk about in the post to help with the bookkeeping?  can't really see them in the photos

I am going to run these two options by the guys to see how we should address the scale issues that I've discovered with your help...which do you think works best:

Option 1:

We leave everything as is for labels (troop strengths and CE), but we
•limit the number of men per square mile to one brigade or 2 regiments with their artillery assets.  In essence you'd be able to field around 8 hits worth of strength in 1 square mile (this is more in line with the rules as they were written...but they had it broken down to battalions...and I don't want that kind of micro managing in our game)
•You'd continue to only be able to fire 4 points worth out of a single edge of the square...so one regiment and an artillery stand.  We'd see the same effects, but it would force us to use reserves as you couldn't bring an entire corps up into one or two squares like we did the last two games. 
•Moral for the corps would stay the same, but you'd deduct a moral point for every 3 hits (as it is all the numbers I originally had are 1/3 of what the author intended...so the moral should be adjusted likewise)

Simple fix but not many dice to roll lol



Option 2 (more dice to throw)

For this I'd need to redo the labels, and we'd keep a bit more 'bookkeeping'. 
•Each regiment would get three attack dice to represent on die per battalion in the regiment.  You'd still only be able to roll four dice per edge of the square
•limit to a square is one brigade plus assets (so 2 regiments and a couple guns)
•Hit points are no longer only 3!!  Regiments now have 3 battalions x their CE - so the Prussians would have around 15 hits/regiment, and French 12/regiment...more staying power in theory, but you're getting hit with more dice
•Your CE would adjust just like we did this past week...but it would mean dividing your hits by 3 (because you have 3 battalions in each regiment...and they are absorbing hits evenly below the surface).  So a regiment at 15 hits and a CE of 5 still hits on 5's with the three dice.  Then after it has taken 3 hits and is down to 12 total, would need to hit on a new CE of 4.  etc...
•Moral would stay the same...1 point deducted for every 10 hits


Appreciate your feedback my friend!!

[mollinary]

I think either of your options would probably work, and it is entirely down to your crew as to which they would prefer. The second option seems to me closer to the original rules intention, but what is more important is how it plays for you.  

Just to take the stacking limit thing to its conclusion. If you keep your current number of batteries in option two, you could deploy up to four in the square with your brigade, as they count as half a unit each.  Bernie did this to allow the creation of the mass batteries which existed in real life. They also fire out of the side of a square as half units, so you can actually roll up to eight artillery dice out of a side, if there are eight or more batteries in the square!  For cavalry the regiment is the unit, and so up to eight regiments can be deployed in a square, so , for example, you could probably get the Prussian Guard Cavalry division in a square.

Enjoyed this exchange, reminded me how much I enjoy these rules!

Mollinary

PS the dials are the circles with Prussian, Saxon, Hessian, Guard, or French flags on them which you should just be able to see in every square occupied by troops. The post is from September 2010, by the way, I just realised there is another Gravelotte St Privat on the board, impressively played out on a large photographic map.   In each of the circles a wedge is missing and the dial shows through. You simply move it show the current casualty number. I just used them. To keep track of casualties as caused, and before base removal. You could use them instead of book keeping. I know that there is a British manufacturer which produces mdf dials which go up to 12 which would probably do the trick.

M