So, just back from the fields of 1866, and inspired to research in more detail some of the intriguing aspects of this neglected campaign, and need some help. I wanted to find more about this Austrian cavalry commander, lauded by Mike Bennighof of Avalanche Press, and apparently the subject of his PhD thesis. He sounded like the perfect commander, intelligent, flexible, up to date if not ahead of his times, dashing and bold. Mike even describes him personally lopping off Canrobert's arm during the war in Italy in 1859, before personally equipping his division with breech loading carbines at his own expense. My problem? My "google foo" or the net itself, has failed me. I cannot find any references to these events which do not originate with Mike Bennighof. I cannot even find references to Canrobert losing his arm at all! Can anyone help me by guiding me to some 19th century source on this remarkable man, Leopold von Edelsheim? Grateful for anything.
Mollinary
Touch of the tall tale there I feel,
Canorobert was wounded at both the Alma and the Inkerman, he served in Italy, distinguishing himself at both Magenta and Solferino and nowhere and in any picture nor does any source I've rever read mention a lost arm! He was wounded in the arm at the Alma. Not the sort of thing the French would have ever let anyone forget, especially a Marshal of France!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_Canrobert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_Canrobert)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_de_Canrobert (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_de_Canrobert)
http://www.military-photos.com/herosalger.htm (http://www.military-photos.com/herosalger.htm)
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Nadar (http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Nadar) definitely shows two arms...
Pinch of salt needed!
I shall double check with Barrie Lovell and the timecast boys too...
Barrie says:
Did a google search on von Edelsheim and there are a number of pages in German...
He did NOT cut Canrobert's arm off at Solferino.
Barrie
Thanks for checking with Barrie, this fits exactly with what I had concluded from my googling. Do you have any references for the German pages? My German is just about good enough to get the gist, but I have found nothing to support the material about Edelsheim's training his division in a unique manner, nor that he equipped them with BL carbines at his own expense. I haven't even been able to find any reference to a Werndl carbine earlier than the Model 1867. With many thanks for you efforts on my behalf,
Mollinary :D
German wiki page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Freiherr_von_Edelsheim-Gyulai
Thanks Olden,
Maybe it is my poor German, but this (and the links it contains) does not seem to cast any light on the issues of Edelsheim as a commander up to and including 1866. The search goes on!
Mollinary
1859 As colonel and commander of Hussar rgt 10. Leopold leads a counterattack against the French at Magenta (June 4th)
"... Oberst Senneville, Generalstabschef des feindlichen Corpscommandanten Marschall Canrobert, ... fiel in den letzten Augenblicken dieses blutigen Gefechtes, Canrobert selbst war nahe daran, von den Reitern Edelsheim’s zusammengehauen zu werden."
Colonel Senneville (chief of staff of Canrobert) was killed in the last moments of the bloody fight, Canrobert was close to being killed by Edelsheims troops.
So no, nothing there to justify the claims made sofar.
Olden,
Hmmmm! I would be very surprised if we found confirmation of the combat amputation claim now, after our collective searches. I am wondering if there is anything out there which supports the claims for ACW influenced tactics and personally financed carbines.
Thanks again,
Mollinary
Jay Luvaas was the main historian as far as I can remember who studied the impact of ACW on European military affairs. Unfortunately they all turned up at the start of the war - saw "the two armed mobs" at First Bull Run and went home in disgust - thus missing the improvements in the later war. He suggested that as the Russian observers turned up so late they were impressed with the Union cavalry and their breechloaders that they went back with this thought. I do not remember anything re the Austrians
Bernie
The Canrobert episode is evidently fictitious. When Bennighof was in communicative mode he did send me a reference to a work in German detailing the adventures of 1st Div but I'm damned if I can find it. I would suggest posting on the yahoo groups 1870 and BLOODANDIRON (Bruce or Mike Embree are bound to have something), you might also try emailing Duncan Rogers of Helion whose personal archive is extensive. Wawro gives a reference to Edelsheim's ideas on the role of modern cavalry in the footnotes at the bottom of page 268.
Cam,
Well done for finding the footnote. As far as I can tell, it refers to Edelsheim's championing of arming the cavalry with a carbine. I found a book on line on the Army of Franz Josef which refers to the arming of Edelsheim's division with carbines in May 1866, and Thurn und Taxis' regiments with carbines for one squadron per regiment. I looked through Lettow-Vorbeck, and he refers to a "shortened infantry rifle" if my German does not let me down. This is all a long way from Werndl breech loaders at his own expense!
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 01 July 2012, 08:59:21 PM
Cam,
Well done for finding the footnote. As far as I can tell, it refers to Edelsheim's championing of arming the cavalry with a carbine. I found a book on line on the Army of Franz Josef which refers to the arming of Edelsheim's division with carbines in May 1866, and Thurn und Taxis' regiments with carbines for one squadron per regiment. I looked through Lettow-Vorbeck, and he refers to a "shortened infantry rifle" if my German does not let me down. This is all a long way from Werndl breech loaders at his own expense!
Mollinary
Stop picking the scab and face it, the definitive history of 1866 in the English language is waiting to be written, take early retirement and get on with it, look if it'll make you feel any better I'll even do the introduction.
Quote from: cameronian on 02 July 2012, 07:22:01 AM
Stop picking the scab and face it, the definitive history of 1866 in the English language is waiting to be written, take early retirement and get on with it, look if it'll make you feel any better I'll even do the introduction.
Isn't Quentin Barrie's (sp?) book on 1866 any good?
Quote from: Ben Waterhouse on 02 July 2012, 07:49:15 AM
Isn't Quentin Barrie's (sp?) book on 1866 any good?
No, it doesn't go into detail about Edelsheim's command.
Well, I have occupied myself during the interminable tennis by looking through the Austrian staff history in a slightly more systematic manner than before. In its description of the painful mobilisation of the Army, described in such detail that the dispatch of extra wagons to the corps is set out, I came across a description of the issue of weapons to the Light Cavalry (in mid May 1866!). It was decided to issue all the ORs (gemeiner) in Edelsheim's division, and one squadron per regiment in Thurn und Taxis' division with "Extra Corps Gewehr". In true Hapsburg fashion those who were issued with the carbine had their pistols taken away. A footnote sets out that 3,440 of these weapons were sent from Vienna to units of the 1st Light Cavalry Division in Prague, Theresianstadt and Josefstadt. If my cod German is right, they were also issued 24 cartridges a man as "pocket ammunition" and extra 30 as a reserve. Now to the suppositions. Googling shows two "Extra Corps" versions of the Lorenz, an 1854 model and an 1862 one. Both are muzzle loaders. A breech loading version does not seem to be available until an 1867 contract was let to convert 80,000 Lorenz to the Wanzl system. Grateful if anyone can confirm or modify this supposition. Second, 3440 weapons was far below the actual strength of the division, let alone it's book strength. From the use of the word gemeiner, could I assume that they were not issued to NCOs and Officers? The only other way I can think of to explain the shortfall is that they were not issued to the so called "German Light Cavalry" the two dragoon regiments, but it does not seem likely. Third, I think my books say that the Light Cavalry Divisions were not permanent formations, but we're made up of existing brigades on an ad hoc basis. Is it a reasonable assumption that the 3 brigades of Edelsheim's Division had their depots in Prague, Theresienstadt and Josefstadt? Anyone? Anyway, perhaps enough to get someone through the Men's Doubles Finals!
Mollinary
Sterling stuff from the Avocatus Diaboli however, posits the Avocatus Dei, if Edelsheim equipped his men (my recollection is that it was only the hussar regiments) with the Werndl at his own expense, presumably as a result of his frustration with Vienna's glacially slow procurement, are we likely to find such a reference in the Official History?
Fifteen love.
Cam,
Fascinating to see you characterising yourself as Avocatus Dei, and yet only coming up with the somewhat stale, "well they would say that, wouldn't they" sort of conspiracy theory stuff. :-\ :-\. I'll counter with the following pieces:
I) are you saying the government didn't supply any weapons to the division and is lying in the history? Or are you saying they went ahead and did it anyway even thought they knew they had already got better weapons? Hmmm!
II) when did Edelsheim do this amazing piece of military philanthropy? As I understand it (again, am open to correction by those who
have access to better sources) 1st Light cavalry division was a wartime formation, only established on mobilisation and allocated a commander at that time. I think (?) Edelsheim was the commandant of the cavalry school until that moment. If this is true, they wouldn't even be his regiments until mobilisation, when the staff history details the dispatch of the carbines.
III) Jicin. Lettow Vorbeck and the Austrian History both refer to ONE incident of dismounted carbine use. In neither source does it seem to have any appreciable effect, and the hussars are rapidly forced to mount up and retire. Does this imply they are well trained skirmishers with a state of the art breech loading carbines, or light cavalry unused to dismounted warfare newly equipped with a muzzle loader they haven't been trained to use? I rest my case (for the present).
By the way, I have dropped Bruce a line to see if he has any other sources.
Mollinary
Fifteen all, my serve.
I'm searching my sources but so far can only come up with Bennighof, Strategy and Tactics March April 1994 No 167 pages 11 and 15; ditto Bennighof in his notes online concerning his new 1866 game series;
"The other major Austrian formation in Bohemia, 1st Light Cavalry Division, stood in sharp contrast and was probably the best large Austrian unit at the start of the war. Led by Austria's best-known cavalryman, Leopold von Edelsheim-Gyulai, the division's regiments had practiced scouting, screening and dismounted combat â€" missions unknown to most European cavalry units. Edelsheim had won the Military Order of Maria Theresa at Solferino in 1859, leading his regiment on a mad charge into a gap in the French lines and personally lopping off the arm of French Marshal Francois Canrobert. While he had made his reputation as a fighting soldier, Edelsheim was one of the more forward-looking Austrian generals (and at 40, the youngest commanding a major formation) and had eagerly studied cavalry operations in the American Civil War. Frustrated by the army's immense bureaucracy, he had dipped into his massive personal fortune to buy Werndl repeating rifles for his men. The Cavalry School and its chief, the Prince of Thurn und Taxis (wartime commander of the 2nd Light Cavalry Division) still preached mounted combat as the cavalry's reason for existence. Edelsheim saw the cavalryman using his mobility to frustrate enemy movements and gather intelligence. An oversized division, 1st Light Cavalry had three brigades with 6,700 horsemen, plus 24 guns".
"Leopold von Edelsheim-Gyulai, commander of the 1st Light Cavalry Division, armed his men with the excellent Werndl breechloading rifle in March, 1866, three months before the war broke out. These weapons had good reliability and much better performance than the Prussian Dreyse needle-gun. Regiments of 2nd Light Cavalry Division received muzzle-loading carbines just before the war's beginning, as the high command belatedly saw the wisdom of Edelsheim's private venture. They quickly ordered 5,000 Winchester repeaters to re-arm the rest of the light cavalry, but these did not arrive until the war was almost over. Light cavalry regiments in Southern Army facing the Italians did not receive any shoulder arms at all, and relied on their lances and horse pistols instead".
Now normally I wouldn't rely on only one source but Bennighof's PhD thesis was on Edelsheim and the 1st Light Cavalry Div, one would expect that his facts would be accurate and verified unless things have changed a lot since my own undergrad days. I've asked him subsequently by email for verification, likewise I've emailed his alma mater and asked for sight of the thesis; I haven't received a reply to either request. Do any of our friends in academia (any across the pond) have an idea how we can track this thesis down, surely it must be in the public domain, isn't that part of the deal.
Except Canorobert could count to ten without taking a shoe when he died!
;D
Yes, it does reduce his cred slightly however ... lets's try and get the PhD thesis first.
Do you know where he got his PhD? The library at that university should have a copy.
Quote from: Shecky on 15 July 2012, 03:08:10 PM
Do you know where he got his PhD? The library at that university should have a copy.
Emory University - published in 2000:
http://history.emory.edu/home/graduate/faculty-focus-areas/modern-europe.html
Emory, I'm trying.
BTW another reference, admittedly not primary source, The Armies of 1866, Pickelhaube Press, page 2;
"The other Light Cavalry Regiments were in the process of converting from pistol to to short Werndl carbines although 20 men in each Ulhan regiment carried the carbine in any event (might this have been the muzzle loader? - my comment). By the outcome of the war only half the Light Cavalry Regiments (including incidentally all of 1st Light Cavalry Division), had completed the transition"
I must say that following this thread is quite enjoyable, watching combined efforts unearth more and more information is fantastic, and exactly what forums are for.
:-bd
Cam,
I just googled Mike Bennighof's thesis at Emory. It is from 2000, and is titled : "Echoes of Radetsky: Institutional memory and the Austrian Campaign in Italy 1866". Close to Edelsheim, but not quite a cigar?
Curiously on your quote, my copy says "from pistol to short infantry carbine"! As you say not a primary source, and I can counter with another secondary Wargamer's source, Darko Pavlovic's Osprey Man at Arms no 329, "The Austrian Army 1836-66 (2) Cavalry" page 33: "some hussars were issued with the adapted Extracorps-Gewehr (specialist troops' rifle) shortly before the outbreak of the war of 1866, when the troopers of the 1st Light Cavalry Division and of one squadron in each regiment of the 2nd Light Cavalry Division were armed in this way.". This fits exactly with my quotation from the Austrian Official History.
Regards,
Mollinary
OK - time to expose some of the original material in the Austrian History concerning Jicin, and see if any of our friends who are more fluent in German than I can offer a literal translation. Having described how the Austrians, including the Liechtenstein Hussars of Appel's brigade, were bundled out of the village of Zames towards Lunacek, it goes on to say:
"Auch die Brigade Wallis ruckte etwas vor, - und alle drei Cavallerie-Regimenter machten sich in der Erwartung des baldigen Einruckens der sachsischen Truppen, zur Vertheidigung der Stellung in erster Linie bereit. Mehrere Zuge sassen ab, formirten sich zu Fuss und besetzten den zwischen Lunacek und Zames gelegenen Hugel, doch konnten dieselben bei aller Tapferkeit und obgleich sie durch attakirende Schwarme unterstutzt wurden, ihre Position nicht lange halten; als etwa gegen 6 Uhr bedeutendere feindliche Krafte vorruckten, mussten die Brigaden ihre Plankler unter dem Schutze einer Attake, welche die zu Pferde gebleibenen Abtheilungen der 1. und 3. Escadron des Regiments Liechtenstein-huszaren ausfuhrten, zurucknehmen."
Page 203, Osterreichs Kampfe Im Jahre 1866
Grateful in advance for any help.
Mollinary
Yes I see his thesis was on the Italian campaign but I'm sure he told me it was on Edelsheim, admittedly it was years ago; nonetheless lets unearth it and find out what is says; the Pickelhaube quote is exactly as I have said, page 2, weapons and tactics, para 4. What edition do you have?
Cam,
September 1994, but he may have modified it to take account of Bennighof's work. His original statement is consistent with Lettow-Vorbeck, page 16. It is also L-V who says that before the outbreak of war Edelsheim, who he obviously admires, was in charge of the equitation school in Vienna.
Mollinary
Quote from: cameronian on 15 July 2012, 06:45:23 PM
the Pickelhaube quote is exactly as I have said, page 2, weapons and tactics, para 4.
My edition (2003) agrees with Cam for what it's worth.
Duncan Rogers (Helion) doesn't know either :o
On my own quotation from the Austrian History, I'll hazard the first effort at capturing it's gist.
The Brigade Wallis also deployed forward, and the three regiments together deployed on the hill between Lunacek and Zames and prepared to defend the front line in anticipation of the arrival of the Saxons. Several companies dismounted, formed up on foot, and bravely defended themselves against the attacking swarms of Skirmishers. They could not hold their positions long, and when attacked by strong forces of the enemy, they retired about 6 o'clock on the horseholders of the first and third squadrons of the Liechtenstein Hussars, and then retreated.
Not exactly a literal translation, can anyone offer a more exact version?
Molinary
The Wallis Brigade also advanced a little - and all three cavalry regiments, expecting that the troops from Saxony will arrive soon, prepared to defend the position in the first line of defence. Several troops dismounted, advanced on foot and occupied the hill between Lunacek and Zames, but despite great courage, and even while supported by attacking 'Swarms' could not hold their position for long; when at about 6 o'clock larger enemy formations advanced, the Brigades had to withdraw their skirmishers under the protection of an attack by the units of the 1st and 3rd Squadron of the Liechtenstein regiment of Hussars that had remained mounted.
Sometimes it helps to sit in the middle. :D
Olden,
Very, very helpful, in particular the piece regarding withdrawing under cover of a charge by the remaining mounted squadrons. I should have worked that out if I was better at this, and had read it more carefully!
Mollinary
Work harder Mollinary, then you can translate all those primary sources, then you can fulfil your destiny ... write the book, THE book, you can't escape it, its written in your stars.
Well I work harder, but it just seems to require harder work! At present I have recruited a friendly Bavarian Colonel to produce me a detailed translation to back up the one Olden BUA kindly provided - and I have begun painting the dismounted hussars for my next games. But they WILL be equipped with Extra Corps Gewehrs, a muzzle loading carbine, and they will be - PANTS :d :d :d !
Mollinary
Curses, well mine have Werndls so watch out :> My Czech interpreter friend/client is making a start on the Svib booklet, I'm really keen to understand the text surrounding that extraordinary map of the forest showing it 2/3 cleared, I'll circulate the translation to all interested parties when its complete then its on to the rocket pamphlet we picked up at Chlum. I plan to republish it in an English version which I'll send over for the museum shop. If she's still game (and skint!) I might just get a copy of that Czech history we saw at Chlum and start her on that.
Still nothing from Grof though La Belle Helena is on the trail, watch this space.
The further I delve, the more I realise how thinly the military aspects of this war are covered, the definitive history in the English language still hasn't been written y'know.
Hi, Cam,
I am currently involved in the unfamiliar experience (for the last three or four years) of painting my own figures! In this case, the bleeping dismounted Austrians. On the basis of the passage in OK I am giving the Dragoons dismounted figures as well as the four hussar regiments. The Dragoons don't invite too close inspection (Pendraken don't make them, so they are heavily disguised Wargames South Bavarian Jaegers), but at least they are green. To paint the hussars I looked up the painting guide on the North Star site. As you will know, their figures started life as Helion, as did their painting guides. What do you think I came across (belatedly) from the sainted Duncan? The hussars got Extra Corps Gewehr (not carbines) to give them more firepower. Another devotee of OK over MB PhD!? :D
Mollinary
Sorry still not convinced :> mine will have Werndls.
Got a nice email from Grof today, basically he's snowed under with work but will reconsider in a year. Still waiting for the Svib translation, perhaps another month.
... and then the thought struck me, ploughing through various histories of the SYW, could Bennighof have mistaken, or read a mistaken reference, confusing Liechtenstein - who dipped into his private fortune liberally to fund the modernisation of the Austrian artillery (Duffy - various) with Edelsheim ?
Quote from: cameronian on 03 March 2017, 08:22:10 AM
... and then the thought struck me, ploughing through various histories of the SYW, could Bennighof have mistaken, or read a mistaken reference, confusing Liechtenstein - who dipped into his private fortune liberally to fund the modernisation of the Austrian artillery (Duffy - various) with Edelsheim ?
What a charitable thought!
I know, tenuous, but otherwise where on earth did it come from ? The American translator has read pretty much everything that has been published and he can't find any reference to it. Interestingly he can't find any reference to Poschacher's jaegers being passed loaded muskets at Jicin either, the only mention (several though possibly emanating from a single observation) is of a 'tiered defence'.
This is indeed a very interesting thread. Makes me want to go revisit all my papers under work to make sure I make no bold claims :p