Leopold von Edelsheim 1866

[mollinary]

So, just back from the fields of 1866, and inspired to research in more detail some of the intriguing aspects of this neglected campaign, and need some help. I wanted to find more about this Austrian cavalry commander, lauded by Mike Bennighof of Avalanche Press, and apparently the subject of his PhD thesis. He sounded like the perfect commander, intelligent, flexible, up to date if not ahead of his times, dashing and bold.  Mike even describes him personally lopping off Canrobert's arm during the war in Italy in 1859, before personally equipping his division with breech loading carbines at his own expense. My problem?  My "google foo" or the net itself, has failed me. I cannot find any references to these events which do not originate with Mike Bennighof.  I cannot even find references to Canrobert losing his arm at all!  Can anyone help me by guiding me to some 19th century source on this remarkable man, Leopold von Edelsheim?  Grateful for anything.

Mollinary

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Touch of the tall tale there I feel,
Canorobert was wounded at both the Alma and the Inkerman, he served in Italy, distinguishing himself at both Magenta and Solferino and nowhere and in any picture nor does any source I've rever read mention a lost arm! He was wounded in the arm at the Alma. Not the sort of thing the French would have ever let anyone forget, especially a Marshal of France!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_Canrobert
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois_Certain_de_Canrobert
http://www.military-photos.com/herosalger.htm
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Nadar definitely shows two arms...
Pinch of salt needed!
I shall double check with Barrie Lovell and the timecast boys too...

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Barrie says:
Did a google search on von Edelsheim and there are a number of pages in German...

He did NOT cut Canrobert's arm off at Solferino.

Barrie

[mollinary]

Thanks for checking with Barrie, this fits exactly with what I had concluded from my googling.  Do you have any references for the German pages?  My German is just about good enough to get the gist, but I have found nothing to support the material about Edelsheim's training his division in a unique manner, nor that he equipped them with BL carbines at his own expense. I haven't even been able to find any reference to a Werndl carbine earlier than the Model 1867. With many thanks for you efforts on my behalf,

Mollinary 

[OldenBUA]

German wiki page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Freiherr_von_Edelsheim-Gyulai

[mollinary]

Thanks Olden,

Maybe it is my poor German, but this (and the links it contains) does not seem to cast any light on the issues of Edelsheim as a commander up to and including 1866.  The search goes on!

Mollinary

[OldenBUA]

1859 As colonel and commander of Hussar rgt 10. Leopold leads a counterattack against the French at Magenta (June 4th)

"... Oberst Senneville, Generalstabschef des feindlichen Corpscommandanten Marschall Canrobert, ... fiel in den letzten Augenblicken dieses blutigen Gefechtes, Canrobert selbst war nahe daran, von den Reitern Edelsheim’s zusammengehauen zu werden."

Colonel Senneville (chief of staff of Canrobert) was killed in the last moments of the bloody fight, Canrobert was close to being killed by Edelsheims troops.

So no, nothing there to justify the claims made sofar.

[mollinary]

Olden,

Hmmmm!  I would be very surprised if we found confirmation of the combat amputation claim now, after our collective searches.  I am wondering if there is anything out there which supports the claims for ACW influenced tactics and personally financed carbines.

Thanks again,

Mollinary

[Bernie]

Jay Luvaas was the main historian as far as I can remember who studied the impact of ACW on European military affairs. Unfortunately they all turned up at the start of the war - saw "the two armed mobs" at First Bull Run and went home in disgust - thus missing the improvements in the later war. He suggested that as the Russian observers turned up so late they were impressed with the Union cavalry and their breechloaders that they went back with this thought. I do not remember anything re the Austrians

Bernie
 

[cameronian]

The Canrobert episode is evidently fictitious. When Bennighof was in communicative mode he did send me a reference to a work in German detailing the adventures of 1st Div but I'm damned if I can find it. I would suggest posting on the yahoo groups 1870 and BLOODANDIRON (Bruce or Mike Embree are bound to have something), you might also try emailing Duncan Rogers of Helion whose personal archive is extensive. Wawro gives a reference to Edelsheim's ideas on the role of modern cavalry in the footnotes at the bottom of page 268.

[mollinary]

Cam,

Well done for finding the footnote.  As far as I can tell, it refers to Edelsheim's championing of arming the cavalry with a carbine.  I found a book on line on the Army of Franz Josef which refers to the arming of Edelsheim's division with carbines in May 1866, and Thurn und Taxis' regiments with carbines for one squadron per regiment.   I looked through Lettow-Vorbeck, and he refers to a "shortened infantry rifle" if my German does not let me down. This is all a long way from Werndl breech loaders at his own expense!

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Cam,

Well done for finding the footnote.  As far as I can tell, it refers to Edelsheim's championing of arming the cavalry with a carbine.  I found a book on line on the Army of Franz Josef which refers to the arming of Edelsheim's division with carbines in May 1866, and Thurn und Taxis' regiments with carbines for one squadron per regiment.   I looked through Lettow-Vorbeck, and he refers to a "shortened infantry rifle" if my German does not let me down. This is all a long way from Werndl breech loaders at his own expense!

Mollinary

Stop picking the scab and face it, the definitive history of 1866 in the English language is waiting to be written, take early retirement and get on with it, look if it'll make you feel any better I'll even do the introduction.

[Ben Waterhouse]

Stop picking the scab and face it, the definitive history of 1866 in the English language is waiting to be written, take early retirement and get on with it, look if it'll make you feel any better I'll even do the introduction.

Isn't Quentin Barrie's (sp?) book on 1866 any good?

[Hertsblue]

Isn't Quentin Barrie's (sp?) book on 1866 any good?

No, it doesn't go into detail about Edelsheim's command.

[mollinary]

Well, I have occupied myself during the interminable tennis by looking through the Austrian staff history in a slightly more systematic manner than before. In its description of the painful mobilisation of the Army, described in such detail that the dispatch of extra wagons to the corps is set out, I came across a description of the issue of weapons to the Light Cavalry (in mid May 1866!).  It was decided to issue all the ORs (gemeiner) in Edelsheim's division, and one squadron per regiment in Thurn und Taxis' division with "Extra Corps Gewehr". In true Hapsburg fashion those who were issued with the carbine had their pistols taken away.   A footnote sets out that 3,440 of these weapons were sent from Vienna to units of the 1st Light Cavalry Division in Prague, Theresianstadt and Josefstadt. If my cod German is right, they were also issued 24 cartridges a man as "pocket ammunition" and extra 30 as a reserve.  Now to the suppositions.  Googling shows two "Extra Corps" versions of the Lorenz, an 1854 model and an 1862 one.  Both are muzzle loaders. A breech loading version does not seem to be available  until an 1867 contract was let to convert 80,000 Lorenz to the Wanzl system.  Grateful if anyone can confirm or modify this supposition.  Second, 3440 weapons was far below the actual strength of the division, let alone it's book strength.  From the use of the word gemeiner, could I assume that they were not issued to NCOs and Officers?  The only other way I can think of to explain the shortfall is that they were not issued to the so called "German Light Cavalry" the two dragoon regiments, but it does not seem likely.  Third, I think my books say that the Light Cavalry Divisions were not permanent formations, but we're made up of existing brigades on an ad hoc basis. Is it a reasonable assumption that the 3 brigades of Edelsheim's Division had their depots in Prague, Theresienstadt and Josefstadt? Anyone?   Anyway, perhaps enough to get someone through the Men's Doubles Finals!

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Sterling stuff from the Avocatus Diaboli however, posits the Avocatus Dei, if Edelsheim equipped his men (my recollection is that it was only the hussar regiments) with the Werndl at his own expense, presumably as a result of his frustration with Vienna's glacially slow procurement, are we likely to find such a reference in the Official History?
Fifteen love.

[mollinary]

Cam,

Fascinating to see you characterising yourself as Avocatus Dei, and yet only coming up with the somewhat stale, "well they would say that, wouldn't they" sort of conspiracy theory stuff.    .  I'll counter with the following pieces:
I) are you saying the government didn't supply any weapons to the division and is lying in the history? Or are you saying they went ahead and did it anyway even thought they knew they had already got better weapons? Hmmm!

II) when did Edelsheim do this amazing piece of military philanthropy?  As I understand it (again, am open to correction by those who
have access to better sources) 1st Light cavalry division was a wartime formation, only established on mobilisation and allocated a commander at that time.  I think (?) Edelsheim was the commandant of the cavalry school until that moment. If this is true, they wouldn't even be his regiments until mobilisation, when the staff history details the dispatch of the carbines.

III) Jicin.  Lettow Vorbeck and the Austrian History both refer to ONE incident of dismounted carbine use. In neither source does it seem to have any appreciable effect, and the hussars are rapidly forced to mount up and retire.  Does this imply they are well trained skirmishers with a state of the art breech loading carbines,  or light cavalry unused to dismounted warfare newly equipped with a muzzle loader they haven't been trained to use?  I rest my case (for the present). 

By the way, I have dropped Bruce a line to see if he has any other sources.

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Fifteen all, my serve.

[cameronian]

I'm searching my sources but so far can only come up with Bennighof, Strategy and Tactics March April 1994 No 167 pages 11 and 15; ditto Bennighof in his notes online concerning his new 1866 game series;

"The other major Austrian formation in Bohemia, 1st Light Cavalry Division, stood in sharp contrast and was probably the best large Austrian unit at the start of the war. Led by Austria's best-known cavalryman, Leopold von Edelsheim-Gyulai, the division's regiments had practiced scouting, screening and dismounted combat â€" missions unknown to most European cavalry units. Edelsheim had won the Military Order of Maria Theresa at Solferino in 1859, leading his regiment on a mad charge into a gap in the French lines and personally lopping off the arm of French Marshal Francois Canrobert. While he had made his reputation as a fighting soldier, Edelsheim was one of the more forward-looking Austrian generals (and at 40, the youngest commanding a major formation) and had eagerly studied cavalry operations in the American Civil War. Frustrated by the army's immense bureaucracy, he had dipped into his massive personal fortune to buy Werndl repeating rifles for his men. The Cavalry School and its chief, the Prince of Thurn und Taxis (wartime commander of the 2nd Light Cavalry Division) still preached mounted combat as the cavalry's reason for existence. Edelsheim saw the cavalryman using his mobility to frustrate enemy movements and gather intelligence. An oversized division, 1st Light Cavalry had three brigades with 6,700 horsemen, plus 24 guns".



"Leopold von Edelsheim-Gyulai, commander of the 1st Light Cavalry Division, armed his men with the excellent Werndl breechloading rifle in March, 1866, three months before the war broke out. These weapons had good reliability and much better performance than the Prussian Dreyse needle-gun. Regiments of 2nd Light Cavalry Division received muzzle-loading carbines just before the war's beginning, as the high command belatedly saw the wisdom of Edelsheim's private venture. They quickly ordered 5,000 Winchester repeaters to re-arm the rest of the light cavalry, but these did not arrive until the war was almost over. Light cavalry regiments in Southern Army facing the Italians did not receive any shoulder arms at all, and relied on their lances and horse pistols instead".



Now normally I wouldn't rely on only one source but Bennighof's PhD thesis was on Edelsheim and the 1st Light Cavalry Div, one would expect that his facts would be accurate and verified unless things have changed a lot since my own undergrad days. I've asked him subsequently by email for verification, likewise I've emailed his alma mater and asked for sight of the thesis; I haven't received a reply to either request. Do any of our friends in academia (any across the pond) have an idea how we can track this thesis down, surely it must be in the public domain, isn't that part of the deal.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Except Canorobert could count to ten without taking a shoe when he died!