Leopold von Edelsheim 1866

[cameronian]

 
Yes, it does reduce his cred slightly however ... lets's try and get the PhD thesis first.

[Shecky]

Do you know where he got his PhD? The library at that university should have a copy.

[nikharwood]

Do you know where he got his PhD? The library at that university should have a copy.

Emory University - published in 2000:

http://history.emory.edu/home/graduate/faculty-focus-areas/modern-europe.html

[cameronian]

Emory, I'm trying.

BTW another reference, admittedly not primary source, The Armies of 1866, Pickelhaube Press, page 2;

"The other Light Cavalry Regiments were in the process of converting from pistol to to short Werndl carbines although 20 men in each Ulhan regiment carried the carbine in any event (might this have been the muzzle loader? - my comment). By the outcome of the war only half the Light Cavalry Regiments (including incidentally all of 1st Light Cavalry Division), had completed the transition"

[Leon]

I must say that following this thread is quite enjoyable, watching combined efforts unearth more and more information is fantastic, and exactly what forums are for.

[mollinary]

Cam,

I just googled Mike Bennighof's thesis at Emory.  It is from 2000, and is titled : "Echoes of Radetsky: Institutional memory and the Austrian Campaign in Italy 1866".   Close to Edelsheim, but not quite a cigar?  

Curiously on your quote, my copy says "from pistol to short infantry carbine"!  As you say not a primary source, and I can counter with another secondary Wargamer's source, Darko Pavlovic's Osprey Man at Arms no 329, "The Austrian Army 1836-66 (2) Cavalry" page  33: "some hussars were issued with the adapted Extracorps-Gewehr (specialist troops' rifle) shortly before the outbreak of the war of 1866, when the troopers of the 1st Light Cavalry Division and of one squadron in each regiment of the 2nd Light Cavalry Division were armed in this way.". This fits exactly with my quotation from the Austrian Official History.

Regards,

Mollinary

[mollinary]

OK - time to expose some of the original material in the Austrian History concerning Jicin, and see if any of our friends who are more fluent in German than I can offer a literal translation.  Having described how the Austrians, including the Liechtenstein Hussars of Appel's brigade, were bundled out of the village of Zames towards Lunacek, it goes on to say:

"Auch die Brigade Wallis ruckte etwas vor, - und alle drei Cavallerie-Regimenter machten sich in der Erwartung des baldigen Einruckens der sachsischen Truppen, zur Vertheidigung der Stellung in erster Linie bereit. Mehrere Zuge sassen ab, formirten sich zu Fuss und besetzten den zwischen Lunacek und Zames gelegenen Hugel, doch konnten dieselben bei aller Tapferkeit und obgleich sie durch attakirende Schwarme unterstutzt wurden, ihre Position nicht lange halten; als etwa gegen 6 Uhr bedeutendere feindliche Krafte vorruckten, mussten die Brigaden ihre Plankler unter dem Schutze einer Attake, welche die zu Pferde gebleibenen Abtheilungen der 1. und 3. Escadron des Regiments Liechtenstein-huszaren ausfuhrten, zurucknehmen."

Page 203, Osterreichs Kampfe Im Jahre 1866

Grateful in advance for any help.

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Yes I see his thesis was on the Italian campaign but I'm sure he told me it was on Edelsheim, admittedly it was years ago; nonetheless lets unearth it and find out what is says; the Pickelhaube quote is exactly as I have said, page 2, weapons and tactics, para 4. What edition do you have?

[mollinary]

Cam,

September 1994, but he may have modified it to take account of Bennighof's work.  His original statement is consistent with  Lettow-Vorbeck, page 16. It is also L-V who says that before the outbreak of war Edelsheim, who he obviously admires, was in charge of the equitation school in Vienna.


Mollinary

[Hertsblue]

the Pickelhaube quote is exactly as I have said, page 2, weapons and tactics, para 4.

My edition (2003) agrees with Cam for what it's worth.

[cameronian]

Duncan Rogers (Helion) doesn't know either 

[mollinary]

On my own quotation from the Austrian History, I'll hazard the first effort at capturing it's gist.

The Brigade Wallis also deployed forward, and the three regiments together deployed on the hill between Lunacek and Zames and prepared to defend the front line in anticipation of the arrival of the Saxons.   Several companies dismounted, formed up on foot, and bravely defended themselves against the attacking swarms of Skirmishers. They could not hold their positions long, and when attacked by strong forces of the enemy, they retired about  6 o'clock on the horseholders of the first and third squadrons of the Liechtenstein Hussars, and then retreated.

Not exactly a literal translation, can anyone offer a more exact version?

Molinary

[OldenBUA]

The Wallis Brigade also advanced a little - and all three cavalry regiments, expecting that the troops from Saxony will arrive soon, prepared to defend the position in the first line of defence. Several troops dismounted, advanced on foot and occupied the hill between Lunacek and Zames, but despite great courage, and even while supported by attacking 'Swarms' could not hold their position for long; when at about 6 o'clock larger enemy formations advanced, the Brigades had to withdraw their skirmishers under the protection of an attack by the units of the 1st and 3rd Squadron of the Liechtenstein regiment of Hussars that had remained mounted.

Sometimes it helps to sit in the middle. 

[mollinary]

Olden,

Very, very helpful, in particular the piece regarding withdrawing under cover of a charge by the remaining mounted squadrons. I should have worked that out if I was better at this, and had read it more carefully!   

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Work harder Mollinary, then you can translate all those primary sources, then you can fulfil your destiny ... write the book, THE book, you can't escape it, its written in your stars.

[mollinary]

Well I work harder, but it just seems to require harder work!    At present I have recruited a friendly Bavarian Colonel to produce me a detailed translation to back up the one Olden BUA kindly provided - and I have begun painting the dismounted hussars for my next games.  But they WILL be equipped with Extra Corps Gewehrs, a muzzle loading carbine, and they will be - PANTS        !

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Curses, well mine have Werndls so watch out   My Czech interpreter friend/client is making a start on the Svib booklet, I'm really keen to understand the text surrounding that extraordinary map of the forest showing it 2/3 cleared, I'll circulate the translation to all interested parties when its complete then its on to the rocket pamphlet we picked up at Chlum. I plan to republish it in an English version which I'll send over for the museum shop. If she's still game (and skint!) I might just get a copy of that Czech history we saw at Chlum and start her on that.

Still nothing from Grof though La Belle Helena is on the trail, watch this space.

The further I delve, the more I realise how thinly the military aspects of this war are covered, the definitive history in the English language still hasn't been written y'know.

[mollinary]

Hi, Cam,

I am currently involved in the unfamiliar experience (for the last three or four years) of painting my own figures!  In this case,  the bleeping dismounted Austrians. On the basis of the passage in OK I am giving the Dragoons dismounted figures as well as the four hussar regiments.  The Dragoons don't invite too close inspection (Pendraken don't make them, so they are heavily disguised Wargames South Bavarian Jaegers), but at least they are green.  To paint the hussars I looked up the painting guide on the North Star site. As you will know, their figures started life as Helion, as did their painting guides.  What do you think I came across (belatedly) from the sainted Duncan?  The hussars got Extra Corps Gewehr (not carbines) to give them more firepower.  Another devotee of OK over MB PhD!? 

Mollinary

[cameronian]

Sorry still not convinced  mine will have Werndls.
Got a nice email from Grof today, basically he's snowed under with work but will reconsider in a year. Still waiting for the Svib translation, perhaps another month.

[cameronian]

... and then the thought struck me, ploughing through various histories of the SYW, could Bennighof have mistaken, or read a mistaken reference, confusing Liechtenstein - who dipped into his private fortune liberally to fund the modernisation of the Austrian artillery (Duffy - various) with Edelsheim ?