CWC-2 Army Lists - OLD

[sultanbev]

Sweden had Green Archer counter-mortar radars, and the Bplpbv-3023, a flsh-spot sound ranging version of the Pbv-302 APC in the 1970s.

[HogansHeroes]

As mentioned, the S-Tank is an unusual case. Relatively thin armour, but highly sloped and with no turret.

This provided good protection in the 60s (the Swedes estimated as much as a Chieftain), but became obsolete in the 70s (really the S-Tank overall in a nutshell).

Just to add, the S-Tank also had very good reversing capabilities (better than its contemporaries) with a separate reverse driver (who also managed the radio). This means the S-Tank could more easily keep its front towards the enemy when redeploying/retreating. Not sure, if that should count when calculating hits/saves?

On the other side, the S-Tank had poorer off-road capabilities than the Swedish Centurions. Maybe its speed should be reduced (given the amount of off-roading on a battlefield)?

[sultanbev]

I agree on rating the S-tank as equivalent to a Chieftain frontally. Plus hull down it has as low a profile as an unarmed jeep. It can also turn on the spot quicker than many tanks can traverse their turrets. Watch the Youtibe videos on it.
I would say the S-tank was viable well into the 1970s, because the most common enemy tank it would face was still the T-55 and PT-76 - none of the T-64s and T-72s were deployed in the northern theatres, and the only 125mm it would face would be T-80s from the mid 1980s. I'm not even sure it would have had to face T-62s.

[Big Insect]

All very helpful folks ... these sort of 'oddity' vehicles are the thing that make the list writing 'fun' 

I'm researching the Portuguese list(s) at present and came across a French made (wheeled) APC (EBR-ETT) used exclusively in Angola, where Portugal was the only export customer (in fact the only customer) for this vehicle, which was basically a turretless Armoured Car (Panhard EBR) with a troop compartment to the rear - but with some integral MGs like a tank.

NB: the Portuguese used a 'fab' vehicle camouflage pattern in Africa/Angola. Just a shame that they use so few armoured vehicles in Africa.

Cheers
Mark

[dylan]

I agree on rating the S-tank as equivalent to a Chieftain frontally.

Hmm, just to note, I disagree with the current rating of the Chieftain.  If the Chieftain is reduced to what I think it should be, then happy if the S-tank is similar.

[hammurabi70]

Hmm, just to note, I disagree with the current rating of the Chieftain.  If the Chieftain is reduced to what I think it should be, then happy if the S-tank is similar.

The Tank Chat is worth a look.
S-tank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7cb7GlOnSY
Chieftain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3OF9IvtHLk

[Raider4]

Hmm, just to note, I disagree with the current rating of the Chieftain.  If the Chieftain is reduced to what I think it should be, then happy if the S-tank is similar.

Looking at the British list, all tanks from Chieftain Mk.2 up to Challenger II have the same Hits/Save of 6/3.


Is an early model Chieftain as well armoured as the latest Challenger? Of course not. But they have the same scores?

Remember the granularity that CWC works at - we only have 4 choices for Hits - 3, 4, 5 or 6. 3 is for light tanks or IFVs, 4 for WW2-types, 5 is early MBTs, 6 is for the latest & greatest.

Save with saves - CWC uses 6 down to 2. Again, 6 for light tanks, 5 for WW2, 4 for early MBT, 3 for later MBT, 2 for the latest Abrahms.

[dylan]

Looking at the British list, all tanks from Chieftain Mk.2 up to Challenger II have the same Hits/Save of 6/3.


Is an early model Chieftain as well armoured as the latest Challenger? Of course not. But they have the same scores?

Remember the granularity that CWC works at - we only have 4 choices for Hits - 3, 4, 5 or 6. 3 is for light tanks or IFVs, 4 for WW2-types, 5 is early MBTs, 6 is for the latest & greatest.

Save with saves - CWC uses 6 down to 2. Again, 6 for light tanks, 5 for WW2, 4 for early MBT, 3 for later MBT, 2 for the latest Abrahms.

Yes, well aware of all that.

Unfortunately my views on Western/NATO tanks were on the other thread relating to the army lists.

So, to clarify, I'm suggesting the early model Chieftains (those before Stillbrew) should be 6/4 rather than 6/3.

[Big Insect]

Can we move this debate over to the Army list Errata chat please folks.
Or it will get lost here or be overlooked.
Thanks
Mark

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

All very helpful folks ... these sort of 'oddity' vehicles are the thing that make the list writing 'fun' 

Given what I'm working on ATM I have to disagree......I hate armies that don't throw anything away.

[Big Insect]

So, to clarify, I'm suggesting the early model Chieftains (those before Stillbrew) should be 6/4 rather than 6/3.

I will certainly review and consider that dylan - as we enter into the errata review - thank you

[Leon]

2 new army lists released tonight to go with our new ranges, which can be found here: https://www.pendraken.co.uk/arab-israeli-1082-c.asp

Arab-Israeli Wars 1956+
- Arab States
- Israeli

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

New lists look good. I would have separated the Arabs out into 3 lists and there should perhappes have been an Iraqi one (Not checked to see if I wrote one) as they commited in 73. Nice to see the NATO designations for missiles ie AT-3 Sagger.

[Leon]

More new army lists released tonight, with the Indo-Pakistan War now covered plus an extra Vietnam list for the ANZACs:

Vietnam War 1957-75
- ANZAC

Indo-Pakistan War 1965-71
- Indian
- Pakistan

[Leon]

Two new army lists released tonight with the Chinese and South Korean lists now available to download:

Cold War 1946-90
- Chinese
- South Korean

This completes Batch 2 of our planned lists, so that's 38 online now.  We'll be moving on to Batch 3 in the coming weeks so keep an eye out for those.

[pbeccas]

Loving the Chinese list.

[Big Insect]

Loving the Chinese list.

Much appreciated    - it was a devil to research due to the various/assorted designations for the different equipment (e.g. a Type 59 can be a rifle and an MBT for example). Plus the fact that there are/were so many different prototypes and export models. It's really easy to go off down a research 'rabbit-hole' and get 'fixated' on a specific vehicle type, only to discover it was never used by the PLA and only a handful of prototypes were ever made!

I've also got very interested in the multiple arming of the later MBTs, with each potentially having their own separate ATGW launchers and even SAM capabilities. Hence I've started to add Upgrades to Armour units as well as to Infantry.

There is a post Vietnam War Vietnamese on its way (not far off) - so that 1979 Sino-Vietnamese border clash will be possible; and also a post Korean War (is that an allowable statement??? - maybe a post 27 July 1953 ceasefire) North Korean War list on the stocks as well. I'm also planning a Royal Thai - but that might take me a while as I've got to keep myself on-task with the published release agenda.
So for now, it's a couple of African list next on the drawing board.

Just need somebody (Leon???) to produce some Cold War Chinese in 10mm and we're off 
Cheers

Mark

[Smartbomb]

Loving all these lists! Great work guys, thank you.

[ingtaer]

Much appreciated    - it was a devil to research due to the various/assorted designations for the different equipment (e.g. a Type 59 can be a rifle and an MBT for example). Plus the fact that there are/were so many different prototypes and export models. It's really easy to go off down a research 'rabbit-hole' and get 'fixated' on a specific vehicle type, only to discover it was never used by the PLA and only a handful of prototypes were ever made!

I've also got very interested in the multiple arming of the later MBTs, with each potentially having their own separate ATGW launchers and even SAM capabilities. Hence I've started to add Upgrades to Armour units as well as to Infantry.

There is a post Vietnam War Vietnamese on its way (not far off) - so that 1979 Sino-Vietnamese border clash will be possible; and also a post Korean War (is that an allowable statement??? - maybe a post 27 July 1953 ceasefire) North Korean War list on the stocks as well. I'm also planning a Royal Thai - but that might take me a while as I've got to keep myself on-task with the published release agenda.
So for now, it's a couple of African list next on the drawing board.

Just need somebody (Leon???) to produce some Cold War Chinese in 10mm and we're off 
Cheers

Mark

Did you develop a "cheat sheet" to help you keep the naming conventions straight? I am having a terrible time of trying to work out what is what and could do with the help! I am not familiar with PLA/N gear at all and mini manufacturers seem to have little consistency.     

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

It is confusing - this is from the old TTG Modern Equipment Handbook published in 1994.

Type 59 - a dierct clone of the T54/5 some of which were delivered prior to the Sino-Soviet split
          from 1985 it had APFSDS ammunition
Type 59/II is same with the L7/M68 105mm
Type 69 is same with upgraded sights II adds APFSDS and was futher upgraded in '85 with better sights
Type 79 has the 105mm
Type 80 is also known as Type 69 III. Has chobhan on the front plate - 5+ save vs ATGW ?
Type 85 has the Choham and 2 versions M has the 125mm  A the 105mm

There are also several upgrades for the type 59 which were being offered in 1990 involving Chobham, ERA somke dischargers and upgrading to pasive Night Fighting gear.