Strength and Honour Rules

[KeithS]

We've been doing the moulding for the Antonine 2mm figures and they're quite fun little sculpts.  They're very small (obviously!) but you can make out things like horses and shield shapes, so you can discern Legionaries vs Auxiliaries vs Cavalry, etc.

That's interesting and the fact that you are involved in the project makes me feel a little less disloyal to Pendraken and 10mm in looking elsewhere for figures.    Happy to support both Warbases and Pendraken mind, two great companies that I have enjoyed dealing with over the years.

[sultanbev]

HOR3 looks like they'll be great for 10mm vegetable gardens in full leaf. The Pendraken cabbage patch 

[Leon]

That's interesting and the fact that you are involved in the project makes me feel a little less disloyal to Pendraken and 10mm in looking elsewhere for figures.    Happy to support both Warbases and Pendraken mind, two great companies that I have enjoyed dealing with over the years.

No worries, Warbases are good guys so I hope these 2mm ranges go well for them.

[fsn]

Hair roller armies!

http://flownlegions.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html


So if that block is Romans, could they also be a Greek phalanx, or a Macedonian pike unit or whatever?

Too small for me ... may as well go to counters for my eyesight. 

[steve_holmes_11]

Hair roller armies!

http://flownlegions.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_15.html


So if that block is Romans, could they also be a Greek phalanx, or a Macedonian pike unit or whatever?

Too small for me ... may as well go to counters for my eyesight. 

I like the way Irregular did their 2mm pike blocks.






I'm not sure whether that approach would work when scaled to "Antonine" unit size.

[Orcs]

Looking at the very well painted (Not by me) 6mm armies I have, I am finding issues identifying stuff, so this small stuff is not for me.

That said I have been intrigued by the Irregular 2mm stuff and it does look ok and can be painted ok.
As to the rules I can see the point of having a single base per legion if you are limited space or cost wise.

But as I have no issues putting together a large table at home  (10 x 4 or 8 x 5) I would rather play mass battles with 10mm Figures, as they look good en-mass and you have room to maneuver in a big battle.

I would however wish Warbases and the author all the best as "One mans meat is another mans poison"

 

 

[Ithoriel]

I think the idea is that you would recognise formations not individuals. Solid squares of Romans, blobs of barbarians in various configurations, thin lines of skirmishers and so on.

I've seen designs for chariots and elephants on the Korhyl Miniatures (https://korhylminiatures.bigcartel.com/blog) site but no pike so far.

[Leman]

Too small for you, so don't use them. I had porridge for breakfast. It's great. Everybody should eat porridge. Cannot understand these disloyal people who eat granola fokr breakfast. Does anyone really care about my breakfast preferences. This site really does seem to be becoming very curmudgeonly.

[FierceKitty]

Curmudgeons are the backbone of the hobby!

[Raider4]

Too small for you, so don't use them. I had porridge for breakfast. It's great. Everybody should eat porridge. Cannot understand these disloyal people who eat granola fokr breakfast. Does anyone really care about my breakfast preferences. This site really does seem to be becoming very curmudgeonly.

Eh? Am I reading the same forum? I see a few comments along the lines of "Nope, too small for me, but good luck to them".

Hardly curmudgeonly.

[steve_holmes_11]

Despite falling outside mu areas of interest, I do find this an interesting development.

The idea of a rules and figures range (or starter set) is something associated with the big companies like Games Workshop and Warlord Games.
It's commercially successful at their scale, and also popular with companies more adjacent to the boardgame market.


I wonder how it will play out with the Grognard generation.

I typically ask myself: How else can I use these figures if the rules don't work out?
At present Strength and Honour + 2mm appears to offer little answer to that, but time will tell.


The other possibility is to use the rules, but assemble units from groups of "traditional" WRG based figures.
Ancients gamers looking for the "next big thing" - especially a next big thing that hasn't been optimized for competition gaming  - may use that as their entry point.

[KeithS]

The idea of a rules and figures range (or starter set) is something associated with the big companies like Games Workshop and Warlord Games.
It's commercially successful at their scale, and also popular with companies more adjacent to the boardgame market.

I'm not sure that it is quite so coordinated as GW or Warlord.  From listening to the blogs etc. my understanding is the author initially made his own figure groups out of modelling materials.   He was also talking to a variety of people about the rules and they have thought that this style of representing figures might be done commercially in various ways, for people who are less DIY inclined.

Of course, you could use Irregular (for example) 2mm figures, or I believe the rules allow you to go for larger scales although you increasingly run into the problem of a few figures representing very large formations.

At any rate I think that the idea grew more organically than some of GW or Warlord offerings, where the rules are more tailored to selling figures (or possibly vice versa).

[hammurabi70]

I'm not sure that it is quite so coordinated as GW or Warlord.  From listening to the blogs etc. my understanding is the author initially made his own figure groups out of modelling materials.  He was also talking to a variety of people about the rules and they have thought that this style of representing figures might be done commercially in various ways, for people who are less DIY inclined.

Of course, you could use Irregular (for example) 2mm figures, or I believe the rules allow you to go for larger scales although you increasingly run into the problem of a few figures representing very large formations.

At any rate I think that the idea grew more organically than some of GW or Warlord offerings, where the rules are more tailored to selling figures (or possibly vice versa).

If one base is supposed to be a Legion then it would seem you would be into DBAesque rules, as such an army would be 60,000 strong.  Cohort style would seem more sensible and give flexibility but would mean big armies would still have a lot of bases so perhaps not so good!

[Ithoriel]

If one base is supposed to be a Legion then it would seem you would be into DBAesque rules, as such an army would be 60,000 strong.  Cohort style would seem more sensible and give flexibility but would mean big armies would still have a lot of bases so perhaps not so good!

In the one interview I've heard with the author he describes the drive to develop the rules being triggered by dissatisfaction with some elements of the DBA rules.

I can see me buying the rules, even though I may never play them, if initial reaction when released is sufficiently positive.

[Lardy Rich]

Morning all.  I do apologise for rudely interrupting, but was a wee bit concerned about the Leni Riefenstahl comments.  "Strength & Honour" was a Roman military verbal salute.  The game's author/designer had his own working suggestion which was a bit bonkers, so we looked for another.  This was suggested by our old chum Henry Hyde who is, as we all know, the least fascist person around. 

It's funny how we have had a bit of push back since we started saying that the rules were for smaller scales, something I know Pete at Baccus has mentioned in the past.  Some people seem to have a very fixed idea about what constitutes a wargame; usually conforming with the games they play in the scale they prefer.

When it comes to 2mm being a bit odd, the good news is that you can play Strength & Honour in any scale, its just that the smaller scales give a better 'birds eye view' of a big army of tens of thousands of men. But that's just the authors own preference. Several companies started making figures based on the home made models Mark started using, and that's nice to see as it makes getting started much easier. However, this is not a big corporate attack on the hobby.  We haven't licensed the model production; we don't make a penny out of it, but they asked and we said 'yes' as it helps the gamers who were looking for models like Marks' ones but didn't feel like making their own.  As it happens, we are taking the game to Joy if Six in July and running a 6mm version there.  We also have a good few people preparing armies in 10mm.

Nobody is attempting to force anyone to play Strength & Honour in some 'weird' scale.  Indeed, nobody is attempting to force anyone to play the game at all if they don't fancy it.  To that end we are running a series of films on Lard TV which take you step by step on how to create an army and how to play a game.  People can then make an informed judgement about whether it is for them or not.

Fear not, the equilibrium of the world of wargaming is not under threat; it's just a set of rules that some people might well have a bit of fun with in hopefully challenging and enjoyable games.

Cheers

Richard

[mollinary]

Curious, when I read the title, it was not  Leni Riefenstahl that came to mind, but 'Gladiator' with Russell Crowe fist pumping his legionaries ( ooh er, matron!) before the big battle at the start. 

I shall buy them, as I love looking at new rules to see if they have any mechanisms I like. They'll have to be pretty good, however, for me to use them instead of Commands and Color's Epic or To the Strongest! 

[mmcv]

I've been watching these rules with interest. Having experimented a bit with 2mm in the gunpowder era I do like the overall look you can achieve with formation blocks. Gives you a much more realistic overview of what they'd actually look like with a bit of a "gods eye view" on the army. You can actually make settlements looks like settlements, not just a building or two. Forests can actually be forests, etc. It's a different aesthetic from how a lot of people view wargaming, but a no less valid one, and perhaps one more familiar to the video games generations.

With ancients you can get a lot of milage out of a single base - in 2mm the difference between a Marian, Ceasarian and Early imperial legion is negligible and large blocks of cavalry or warband infantry can serve a wide range of theatres. I like the idea of playing the great general ordering the entire battle about rather than small representatives of what is happening. I enjoy the spectacle of larger figures too, but 2mm gives you the flexibility of kriegspiel style gaming while still allowing a real battle like aesthetic looking down on the field of battle.

Haven't watched the latest video in the series yet but looking forward to seeing how the rules develop. The time and cost investment in them is fairly low and if they don't work out there's no reason you can't use the same figures for other ancients games like To the Strongest or Hail Caesar.

I suspect whether you like or dislike the very small scales will come down to what you find interesting in the hobby. If you're more into the toy soldier aspects of it then of course this style won't be your thing, whereas if you're more into the history and grand tactical aspects of it then it can have a lot of appeal, and from what I've seen so far you could just as easily do it in larger scales. I think the recommended base sizes are 120mm frontage so you can fit a lot of figures on that in 6mm or 10mm and could have it set up as a cohort representing a legion for instance. In fact it would be feasible to do a 1:1 century at 10mm on that base size, it's more of an abstract representation then, but isn't that true of all wargaming unless you're doing 1:1 skirmishing!

I'm happy to see the very small scales getting a bit more exposure, will be interested to see if the rules are good, or if they encourage others to create rules at a similar level. Plus more figure ranges is always welcome!

[mmcv]

Curious, when I read the title, it was not  Leni Riefenstahl that came to mind, but 'Gladiator' with Russell Crowe fist pumping his legionaries ( ooh er, matron!) before the big battle at the start.

Same!

[DecemDave]

Fear not, the equilibrium of the world of wargaming is not under threat

Well you are no fun at all then     

Its been amazing to watch the anticipation build up on FB.  I will be pre-ordering and will defo use the top down pics to see if I should think about 10mm versions!   

[DecemDave]

Deep in the "bonus material" for Gladiator is an interview with Ridley Scott where he said he based his vision of Commodus's Rome on the gatherings of the well known fascist state previously mentioned. Hence the adoring crowds (well initially), the salutes, the architecture, the black clad Praetorians etc.

I find it difficult to imagine those on the receiving end of the republic/empires expansion regarding invading legions as liberators or even bringers of improvements in sanitation and roads.

Lights fuse and retires 200 paces...