Attacking bunkers

[Amra]

Hi All ,
Trying out pillboxes and bunker scenarios , so new questions 😀
1) A bunker buster capable gun fires on a bunker
        It hits on 6 ? How does it destroy the bunker? I can't find anything on the hits buildings,bunkers etc take
2) Firing on a pillbox
     Can I target it from all around ? I hit units inside on 6 ? When AFVs fire on the pillbox do they use AT or AP ?
Thanks

[pbeccas]

Hi Amra

From my understanding you don't actually target the bunker or pillbox.  You are targeting the unit inside.  So usually 6 to hit, and a 4+ to save in a bunker, or 5+ save in a pillbox.  You don't destroy the bunker.

When shooting at pillboxes you can only target the front firing arc and you are using AP because the target inside are infantry or a gun team.

Cold War Commander used to have some optional rules which allocated hits and saves to bunkers so you could destroy them.  Nothing stopping you using them in BKC.

light bunker 6 hits, saves on a 5+
medium bunker 9 hits, saves on a 4+
Hvy bunker 12 hits, saves on a 3+

I used to play a lot of BKC II and scanning the book,  the bunker rules in BKCIV do not appear any different. 

Hope that helps? 

[Big Insect]

Hi there -I must have missed this post 1st time around.

pbeccas is correct in everything he states

By all means play an optional rule that allows you to target and potentially destroy the bunker itself. You will inflict casualties on the occupants/defenders at the same time.
I dont have a copy of BKCII to hand but I am sure some kind soul might post up the basics of how it worked.

Cheers
Mark

[pbeccas]

I dont have a copy of BKCII to hand but I am sure some kind soul might post up the basics of how it worked.
Mark

It was never in BKC II Mark.  They were optional rules in Cold War Commander.  Basically shoot at the bunker with AT, treat bunkers exactly the same as tanks with the roll save.  And we used to leave hits on otherwise you can never destroy them.  Troops inside never ran, and they died when the bunker blew up.  It was simple.

[Big Insect]

It was never in BKC II Mark.  They were optional rules in Cold War Commander.  Basically shoot at the bunker with AT, treat bunkers exactly the same as tanks with the roll save.  And we used to leave hits on otherwise you can never destroy them.  Troops inside never ran, and they died when the bunker blew up.  It was simple.

Sounds like a very sensible option - thanks

[Amra]

Um sorry but
The rules say
Special Ability
Bunker Buster ( p75) "Unit can target the bunker or building without having to target the unit inside "

Field Defenses (p62)
Hard Buildings " can be targeted by direct fire ...and be destroyed.(They) have both a hit and save of 6 against these attacks "

So I do target the building/bunker . How many hits does it take please ? I'm only using the BKCIV rules so a reference to where it is in there would be great

Thanks

[pbeccas]

The rules say
Special Ability
Bunker Buster ( p75) "Unit can target the bunker or building without having to target the unit inside "

There are no mention anywhere in the rules or optional rules with a hit number for any structure.  That's why I pointed to the Cold War Commander optional rules.

Field Defenses (p62)
Hard Buildings " can be targeted by direct fire ...and be destroyed.(They) have both a hit and save of 6 against these attacks "

I'm confused.  In my rule book on page 62 there is no mention of this at all in the field defence section?

In addition your first quote you said the special ability rules are on page 75?  They are on page 76 in my book?  Have we got the same rule book?  I only got mine a month ago.

[Itinerant Hobbyist]

Paul,
I just downloaded my updated PDF and HARD buildings been added to the book. It was updated Mar 2020. It may also be in the errata...let me check.

[Itinerant Hobbyist]

Paul - these are all in the Errata - so you'll have the latest - https://pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/BKC-IVRulesErrataMar2020.pdf

[pbeccas]

I just went through all the army lists.  Only two weapon types have bunker busting ability.  The German 88 AA gun in its many formats.  And the Soviet 280mm M1939 Mortar.  

[pbeccas]

Paul - these are all in the Errata - so you'll have the latest - https://pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/BKC-IVRulesErrataMar2020.pdf

Sweet.  Thanks Todd.

[pbeccas]

So I do target the building/bunker . How many hits does it take please ? I'm only using the BKCIV rules so a reference to where it is in there would be great

After discovering extra rules 😜, thank Todd.

The answer is 6 hits.

"Hard Buildings have both a Hit and Save value of 6 against these attacks (other weapons have no significant effect), can be Suppressed but can never Fall-back. They have no Flanks or Rears."

[Ithoriel]

After discovering extra rules 😜, thank Todd.

The answer is 6 hits.

"Hard Buildings have both a Hit and Save value of 6 against these attacks (other weapons have no significant effect), can be Suppressed but can never Fall-back. They have no Flanks or Rears."

We read that as "6 to hit" and "6 to save" and have been allocating hit values according to the size of the structure. A concrete pill box and a D-Day style command bunker are very different propositions.

[pbeccas]

Hitting a giant bunker wouldn't need just a 6?  Surely 4+?  They are huge.  And probably 3+ save?

Very strange rules?

Anyways, the real question.  Did  the Germans really use 88 Flak guns as bunker busters? 

[Amra]

Ha now you see my problem ! 

I read it that you need a 6 to hit the bunker , but maybe that's wrong .
I cant see anywhere that mentions different types of hard building targets ( different buildings or bunkers)
As many scenarios have these fortifications its important to work out I think

For what its worth , I'm playing Western Desert where the 88 was used in this role
It's weird the Brummbar doesn't have the capability as I thought that's what it was designed for....

[Steve J]

I would have thought the Churchill AVRE with Petard mortar would count too, given it was designed for this sort of role.

[Ithoriel]

The Russian B-4 203mm tracked howitzer (same chassis but smaller gun than the Br-5 280mm mortar)  was known as "Stalin's Sledgehammer" for it's ability to reduce fortifications to rubble. I suspect lots of larger artillery pieces should have a "bunker buster" ability.

We assumed the "six to hit" represented the need to concentrate fire on specific points to collapse the structure, rather than plastering it haphazardly with fire.

[sultanbev]

The Germans used 88s against pillboxes and steel turretted bunkers on the maginot line (and probably others) so that is where their bunker buster rating comes from. Having said that, any high velocity gun large calibre could do the same with armour piercing, so all the following should also be rated as such:
3.7" AA
85mm AA
90mm AA (French & US)
10cm K18 gun
10.5cm Flak39
12.8cm PAK44/Jagdtiger
M12 SP 155mm, M2 Long Tom
ISU-152, ISU-122
122mm M31/37 corps gun
Russian 152mm field guns
Russian 107mm corps gun various makes
Japanese 105mm and 150mm field guns (not howitzers)
KV-2 (had concrete piercing ammo)
203mm B4 (had concrete piercing ammo)
Sturmtiger (does have a HEAT round)
No doubt there'll be others.

As for hitting a bunker, it did depend on how much cover it was in. The Japanese log bunkers were particularly difficult to see in Asian theatres. Allied tanks eventually developed a procedure where they used canister or HE to blast away the camo scrub and netting, AP round to penetrate the bunker wall, then HE through the hole just made, and if that failed they drove the tank onto the bunker roof and ground the logs down with the tracks, or brought up a flamethrower.

In Europe the bunkers tended to be more substantial but more obvious, so AP was the first shot, then HE through the hole. The AP was fired at the weapons slits where possible, so even if it didn't penetrate the concrete it might get through the firing slit and wreak havoc inside, or send splinters in that would damage weapons and crew. Sometimes they fired WP/smoke first to blind the gunners inside. So for BKC, I would have thought using the A/T factors should be the primary direct fire factor used.

The AVRE Petard was a bit different in that it used what was an early version of HESH in effect, so was a bunker buster on steroids. The 15cm sIG33 (Brummbar, etc) is different again as it had a HEAT round which might have an effect on bunkers, but was more for demolishing houses and MG nests. It's low velocity HE round cannot be compared to a 155mm Long Tom HE round for example.

In my own rules I just treat bunkers as hull down tanks with armour thicknesses converting concrete to steel at 1:4.5 ratio taken from the Morrow Project rules, eg an 18" thick pillbox is the same as 4" of steel armour, ie the same as a Tiger I, then special damage rolls modified by the weapon used, and whether the hit could penetrate or not. Bunker "armour" varies from 1-6cm for log and earth MG nests, around 10-12cm for pillboxes, up to 35cm for Atlantic Wall command bunkers.

[pbeccas]

A can of worms has been opened 😀

I guess this is why it's easier to target the unit inside.

[Amra]

OK all interesting ,although not directly concerning the Western Desert .

So do we have an actual BKC4 rule supporting the Bunker Buster special ability ?

How do you destroy a bunker ?