Hi All ,
Trying out pillboxes and bunker scenarios , so new questions 😀
1) A bunker buster capable gun fires on a bunker
It hits on 6 ? How does it destroy the bunker? I can't find anything on the hits buildings,bunkers etc take
2) Firing on a pillbox
Can I target it from all around ? I hit units inside on 6 ? When AFVs fire on the pillbox do they use AT or AP ?
Thanks
Hi Amra
From my understanding you don't actually target the bunker or pillbox. You are targeting the unit inside. So usually 6 to hit, and a 4+ to save in a bunker, or 5+ save in a pillbox. You don't destroy the bunker.
When shooting at pillboxes you can only target the front firing arc and you are using AP because the target inside are infantry or a gun team.
Cold War Commander used to have some optional rules which allocated hits and saves to bunkers so you could destroy them. Nothing stopping you using them in BKC.
light bunker 6 hits, saves on a 5+
medium bunker 9 hits, saves on a 4+
Hvy bunker 12 hits, saves on a 3+
I used to play a lot of BKC II and scanning the book, the bunker rules in BKCIV do not appear any different.
Hope that helps?
Hi there -I must have missed this post 1st time around.
pbeccas is correct in everything he states
By all means play an optional rule that allows you to target and potentially destroy the bunker itself. You will inflict casualties on the occupants/defenders at the same time.
I dont have a copy of BKCII to hand but I am sure some kind soul might post up the basics of how it worked.
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: Big Insect on 14 May 2021, 01:39:44 PM
I dont have a copy of BKCII to hand but I am sure some kind soul might post up the basics of how it worked.
Mark
It was never in BKC II Mark. They were optional rules in Cold War Commander. Basically shoot at the bunker with AT, treat bunkers exactly the same as tanks with the roll save. And we used to leave hits on otherwise you can never destroy them. Troops inside never ran, and they died when the bunker blew up. It was simple.
Quote from: pbeccas on 15 May 2021, 09:54:07 AM
It was never in BKC II Mark. They were optional rules in Cold War Commander. Basically shoot at the bunker with AT, treat bunkers exactly the same as tanks with the roll save. And we used to leave hits on otherwise you can never destroy them. Troops inside never ran, and they died when the bunker blew up. It was simple.
Sounds like a very sensible option - thanks
Um sorry but
The rules say
Special Ability
Bunker Buster ( p75) "Unit can target the bunker or building without having to target the unit inside "
Field Defenses (p62)
Hard Buildings " can be targeted by direct fire ...and be destroyed.(They) have both a hit and save of 6 against these attacks "
So I do target the building/bunker . How many hits does it take please ? I'm only using the BKCIV rules so a reference to where it is in there would be great
Thanks
Quote from: Amra on 15 May 2021, 03:47:15 PM
The rules say
Special Ability
Bunker Buster ( p75) "Unit can target the bunker or building without having to target the unit inside "
There are no mention anywhere in the rules or optional rules with a hit number for any structure. That's why I pointed to the Cold War Commander optional rules.
Quote from: Amra on 15 May 2021, 03:47:15 PM
Field Defenses (p62)
Hard Buildings " can be targeted by direct fire ...and be destroyed.(They) have both a hit and save of 6 against these attacks "
I'm confused. In my rule book on page 62 there is no mention of this at all in the field defence section?
In addition your first quote you said the special ability rules are on page 75? They are on page 76 in my book? Have we got the same rule book? I only got mine a month ago.
Paul,
I just downloaded my updated PDF and HARD buildings been added to the book. It was updated Mar 2020. It may also be in the errata...let me check.
Paul - these are all in the Errata - so you'll have the latest - https://pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/BKC-IVRulesErrataMar2020.pdf
I just went through all the army lists. Only two weapon types have bunker busting ability. The German 88 AA gun in its many formats. And the Soviet 280mm M1939 Mortar.
Quote from: Itinerant Hobbyist on 16 May 2021, 12:56:25 AM
Paul - these are all in the Errata - so you'll have the latest - https://pendraken.co.uk/ProductImages/BKC-IVRulesErrataMar2020.pdf
Sweet. Thanks Todd.
Quote from: Amra on 15 May 2021, 03:47:15 PM
So I do target the building/bunker . How many hits does it take please ? I'm only using the BKCIV rules so a reference to where it is in there would be great
After discovering extra rules 😜, thank Todd.
The answer is 6 hits.
"Hard Buildings have both a Hit and Save value of 6 against these attacks (other weapons have no significant effect), can be Suppressed but can never Fall-back. They have no Flanks or Rears."
Quote from: pbeccas on 16 May 2021, 01:08:40 AM
After discovering extra rules 😜, thank Todd.
The answer is 6 hits.
"Hard Buildings have both a Hit and Save value of 6 against these attacks (other weapons have no significant effect), can be Suppressed but can never Fall-back. They have no Flanks or Rears."
We read that as "6 to hit" and "6 to save" and have been allocating hit values according to the size of the structure. A concrete pill box and a D-Day style command bunker are very different propositions.
Hitting a giant bunker wouldn't need just a 6? Surely 4+? They are huge. And probably 3+ save?
Very strange rules?
Anyways, the real question. Did the Germans really use 88 Flak guns as bunker busters?
Ha now you see my problem ! :)
I read it that you need a 6 to hit the bunker , but maybe that's wrong .
I cant see anywhere that mentions different types of hard building targets ( different buildings or bunkers)
As many scenarios have these fortifications its important to work out I think
For what its worth , I'm playing Western Desert where the 88 was used in this role
It's weird the Brummbar doesn't have the capability as I thought that's what it was designed for....
I would have thought the Churchill AVRE with Petard mortar would count too, given it was designed for this sort of role.
The Russian B-4 203mm tracked howitzer (same chassis but smaller gun than the Br-5 280mm mortar) was known as "Stalin's Sledgehammer" for it's ability to reduce fortifications to rubble. I suspect lots of larger artillery pieces should have a "bunker buster" ability.
We assumed the "six to hit" represented the need to concentrate fire on specific points to collapse the structure, rather than plastering it haphazardly with fire.
The Germans used 88s against pillboxes and steel turretted bunkers on the maginot line (and probably others) so that is where their bunker buster rating comes from. Having said that, any high velocity gun large calibre could do the same with armour piercing, so all the following should also be rated as such:
3.7" AA
85mm AA
90mm AA (French & US)
10cm K18 gun
10.5cm Flak39
12.8cm PAK44/Jagdtiger
M12 SP 155mm, M2 Long Tom
ISU-152, ISU-122
122mm M31/37 corps gun
Russian 152mm field guns
Russian 107mm corps gun various makes
Japanese 105mm and 150mm field guns (not howitzers)
KV-2 (had concrete piercing ammo)
203mm B4 (had concrete piercing ammo)
Sturmtiger (does have a HEAT round)
No doubt there'll be others.
As for hitting a bunker, it did depend on how much cover it was in. The Japanese log bunkers were particularly difficult to see in Asian theatres. Allied tanks eventually developed a procedure where they used canister or HE to blast away the camo scrub and netting, AP round to penetrate the bunker wall, then HE through the hole just made, and if that failed they drove the tank onto the bunker roof and ground the logs down with the tracks, or brought up a flamethrower.
In Europe the bunkers tended to be more substantial but more obvious, so AP was the first shot, then HE through the hole. The AP was fired at the weapons slits where possible, so even if it didn't penetrate the concrete it might get through the firing slit and wreak havoc inside, or send splinters in that would damage weapons and crew. Sometimes they fired WP/smoke first to blind the gunners inside. So for BKC, I would have thought using the A/T factors should be the primary direct fire factor used.
The AVRE Petard was a bit different in that it used what was an early version of HESH in effect, so was a bunker buster on steroids. The 15cm sIG33 (Brummbar, etc) is different again as it had a HEAT round which might have an effect on bunkers, but was more for demolishing houses and MG nests. It's low velocity HE round cannot be compared to a 155mm Long Tom HE round for example.
In my own rules I just treat bunkers as hull down tanks with armour thicknesses converting concrete to steel at 1:4.5 ratio taken from the Morrow Project rules, eg an 18" thick pillbox is the same as 4" of steel armour, ie the same as a Tiger I, then special damage rolls modified by the weapon used, and whether the hit could penetrate or not. Bunker "armour" varies from 1-6cm for log and earth MG nests, around 10-12cm for pillboxes, up to 35cm for Atlantic Wall command bunkers.
A can of worms has been opened 😀
I guess this is why it's easier to target the unit inside.
OK all interesting ,although not directly concerning the Western Desert .
So do we have an actual BKC4 rule supporting the Bunker Buster special ability ?
How do you destroy a bunker ?
Six to Hit & Six to Save is the intention for BB weapons. Exactly as Ithoriel states.
The reason for Six to hit is not anything to do with its size - it is to do with the fact that you need to hit most big bunkers in the right place to do them (or their occupants) any significant damage.
In the game 'Bunkers' can range from a small (ish) Japanese log-bunker right up to a Maginot Line type monolithic building.
For the bigger western reinforced concrete type bunkers - particularly on the Atlantic Wall - you could play a house rule based on 'Hit on a 3' but 'Save on a 3'. We use that sometimes in FWC for assaults on large fortified complexes.
You also had the situation in the Winter War, where the Finns repeatedly poured water over their bunkers to create a dense layer of ice over the surface, in addition to the concrete and steel structure. The only disadvantage to this was that it made the bunkers look glossy black and so they stood our against the snow - although some defenders then ended up applying a painted on white camo as well. How you'd reflect the protection of an 'enhanced' bunker like that is a good question - but the soviets dealt with them by driving their big tracked 'mortars' up to within a couple of hundred yards and shooting at the bunkers over open sights!
As with all things BKC - it really does depend upon the level of extraction you want to go to. I am sure that all of the weapons listed by Sultanbev would have some sort of BB capability, but against different types of bunkers they would be more or less effective. The BB designations is easily added at the extra points cost showing for Special Abilities, as you see fit in your own game.
NB: this is not a set of WW2 siege rules - the section on fortifications and fighting in buildings is added very much as an 'add-on'.
Quote from: Amra on 17 May 2021, 07:24:31 AM
How do you destroy a bunker ?
617 Squadron and a dozen Tallboys?*
* The 1945 version of "Take off and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure".
Cheers Big Insect ,that helps
It's hit on 6 and saves on 6
But how many hits does a bunker take ?
6
Hits come off like other units at the end of the turns and Bunkers cannot be suppressed (but Occupants can).
Cheers
Quote from: Big Insect on 17 May 2021, 04:21:07 PM
6
Hits come off like other units at the end of the turns and Bunkers cannot be suppressed (but Occupants can).
Cheers
So you need an average of 36 dice to demolish a pillbox? Presumably the nano-repair-bots fix a pillbox that has taken 5 or less hits? :)
Our version with 2 hits for an earth and wood bunker, 3 for a concrete one, 4 for a medium structure and 6 only for the largest command posts or gun batteries and with hits not slowly recovering every turn, unlike troops, looks very feeble by comparison.
Thanks,is that in the rules anywhere I missed ?
The only bunker buster has 5 shots , so better activate lots of times !
Quote from: Ithoriel on 17 May 2021, 05:04:33 PM
So you need an average of 36 dice to demolish a pillbox? Presumably the nano-repair-bots fix a pillbox that has taken 5 or less hits? :)
Our version with 2 hits for an earth and wood bunker, 3 for a concrete one, 4 for a medium structure and 6 only for the largest command posts or gun batteries and with hits not slowly recovering every turn, unlike troops, looks very feeble by comparison.
That looks like a very sensible approach
The thing for me from a mechanism approach is consistency - if you keep hits on units, I'd suggest you keep them on fortifications, and vice-versa.
As stated previously - the 'challenge' is that of course a single Bunker model actually represents more than just 1 Bunker on the table.
Cheers
Mark
We allow regular units to recover 1 hit at the end of their player turn. Elite recover two. Greens and Fanatics none. It is not possible to recover the last hit point, so units once damaged become a little easier to kill. So ... consistency? .... what's that? :-D
It does mean that it is worth pulling regulars and elites back to recover, if you can.
Quote from: Amra on 18 May 2021, 02:47:46 AM
Thanks,is that in the rules anywhere I missed ?
The only bunker buster has 5 shots , so better activate lots of times !
Our little group tends to take the rules as written as suggestions and a starting point, following Douglas Bader's dictum,"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools." If we haven't added at least half a dozen house rules to a rule set we probably haven't played them. :)
Great discussion and this kind of flexibility is what I like about BKC
As someone posted above, keep it simple stupid.
Leave the hard stuff for hex and counter games. :D
Quote from: pbeccas on 19 May 2021, 11:52:31 PM
As someone posted above, keep it simple stupid.
Leave the hard stuff for hex and counter games. :D
AMEN BROTHER
What was the answer?
Haha ,i think the answer is there is a hole in the rules as written and its not covered so ,
I'm leaning towards a bunker is hit on 6s ,saves on 6s and takes 6 hits . I would leave hits on to represent the gradual degradation of a structure ( could also be a house )
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 20 May 2021, 06:58:10 AM
What was the answer?
What was your question?
Bunkers are 6 to hit, saves on 6 and 6 hits, with hits coming off as per other units, the bunker cannot be suppressed, but occupants can
Or (if you want to play a game against a major bunker network) 3 to hit, save on a 3, 12 hits and hits stay on the bunker (not the occupants) .... but it all depends upon what bunker type you are wanting to depict.
The CWC house rule on Bunkers works well in BCK (IMHO)
Sure ,my question was where in the rules does it say how many hits a bunker/building takes and when they come off .
Please understand ,I'm a big fan of the rules and love the games they generate .I'm not try to denigrate your hard (& successful ) work .
This isn't a mission critical aspect of the rules , as many have posted we can always do a house rule . I just wanted to check I hadn't missed anything
The other thing missing from the Fortification section is 'Turret Bunkers' - to represent the use of tank turrets on top of small underground bunkers - as used by the Germans and Russians on the Eastern front (e.g. Mark IV turrets and T34 turrets etc)
My suggested house rules for these are:
Hit on a 5-6 for direct fire (LoS) and a 6 for Area Template (artillery or air) or LoF fire (on-table mortars or artillery) - due to lower profile and underground (added protection) but no +d:6 for flanks or rear shots.
Saves are always on a 3+ for shooting and a 4+ for assault.
They shoots at same factors as the original tank - but no +1 for under half range for AP (reduced or removed MGs)
Buy them at same cost as the original tank and they have same number of hits as the original tank.
They can be assaulted by infantry in same way as tank units but the infantry get a +1 d:6 in assault, representing the reduced vision for the 'Turret Bunker' crews (but they have no flanks or rears - so no additional d:6 for that)
They can be Suppressed as per 'normal' units. Units ignore any Fall-back results.
Hope that is helpful?
As stated elsewhere, I will look at producing a set of 'optional rules' as a PDF on Fortifications (but it will need to go to the back of the list after CWC, Korea, FWC)
Cheers
Mark
Mark - WORK FASTER ;)
Quote from: Big Insect on 20 May 2021, 08:04:42 AM
The other thing missing from the Fortification section is 'Turret Bunkers' - to represent the use of tank turrets on top of small underground bunkers - as used by the Germans and Russians on the Eastern front (e.g. Mark IV turrets and T34 turrets etc)
Also obsolete Panzer II and Renault FT turrest used in Normandy, and there's at least one photo of a Panther turret in Berlin in '45, but that may be an improvised buried tank rather than a dedicated bunker.
For a real goodie, Austrått Fort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austr%C3%A5tt_Fort) in Norway - a turret off of the battlecruiser Gneisenau. Stunned to learn the thing weighs 800 tons!
Edit: Yay! Promotion. Doubles all around.
They also used panther turrets in Italy!
Quote from: Raider4 on 20 May 2021, 10:03:01 AM
Also obsolete Panzer II and Renault FT turrets used in Normandy, and there's at least one photo of a Panther turret in Berlin in '45, but that may be an improvised buried tank rather than a dedicated bunker.
For a real goodie, Austrått Fort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austr%C3%A5tt_Fort) in Norway - a turret off of the battlecruiser Gneisenau. Stunned to learn the thing weighs 800 tons!
For the buried tank (Panther turret) - I'd use the same principle, as if they are a Turret Bunker
The battleship turret idea seems very Scandinavian - as the Danes had some as part of their Cold War coastal defenses on the Baltic coast; and of course we see something similar on the Greek island of Leros (immortalised by The Guns of Navarone novel by Alistair MacLean) with 6" naval guns in a bunker battery on-shore (but not ships turrets).
I think there are also/were some Greek Cold War turret bunkers on the Aegean islands, using old M24 Chaffee turrets.
The Austrians used T-34, M-47, Charioteer and Centurion tank turrets as part of their Cold War Defences. Details in the link:
https://www.bunkermuseum.at/img/pdf/eng.pdf (https://www.bunkermuseum.at/img/pdf/eng.pdf)
Japanese caves anyone?
Quote from: pbeccas on 20 May 2021, 01:19:08 PM
Japanese caves anyone?
I think the Allied/US tactic was to block off all the entrances, rather than go in fighting, if I remember correctly.
They were pretty impervious to any form of artillery or BB direct fire. Smoke might work, but overall I'd probably not recommend their inclusion in a BKC game.
Although I am sure you could use any variations on Dungeons & Dragons or even Space Hulk to play an engagement where troops were sent in to route the Japanese out.
That might be an interesting multi-player game - probably best with 20mm or 28mm figures though.
I remember in one documentary the the US fired armoured piercing rounds at the wooden supports across the top of entrances, as this would cause them to break, thus collapsing the earth above and leading to the entrance being sealed. HE didn't have the same effect.
From what I've seen and read, if the Allies thought there were civilians or non-Japanese workers in the cave they'd be given a chance to come out and surrender. Otherwise the entrance was blown and the Japanese troops were entombed.
For more turret bunkers, there's also this option: https://www.ijssellinie.nl/en/welcome/
Lots of opportunities for Firefly and/or regular Sherman turrets, and also quad .50 mounts.
Quote from: Big Insect on 20 May 2021, 01:55:04 PM
I think the Allied/US tactic was to block off all the entrances, rather than go in fighting.
Although I am sure you could use any variations on Dungeons & Dragons or even Space Hulk to play an engagement where troops were sent in to route the Japanese out.
My grandad was with the Australian 9th Infantry Division and fought during the Labuan Island assault in 1945. After the initial landings the Japanese retreated into a cave system in a pocket from which they were launching company level attacks. My grandad told me they used artillery, direct firing Bofors guns, naval guns, frontal assault to throw in explosives, nothing worked. In the end they had to land Matilda Frog flamethrowing tanks which basically drove up to the cave entrances and burnt them out. A lot of Japanese got out into the jungle, but then the Australians had to defend the tunnel entrances as the Japanese tried to get back in.
There's was no D&D. There was a lot of hard fighting.
Absolutely - I was just saying that if you wanted to try and game an engagement where troops are sent into cave complexes to route out an enemy, then a good gaming mechanism might be to sue something like D&D or Space Hulks :)
Dang man. I think it's awesome you got to speak with him about it.
Quote from: pbeccas on 21 May 2021, 12:22:51 AM
My grandad was with the Australian 9th Infantry Division and fought during the Labuan Island assault in 1945. After the initial landings the Japanese retreated into a cave system in a pocket from which they were launching company level attacks. My grandad told me they used artillery, direct firing Bofors guns, naval guns, frontal assault to throw in explosives, nothing worked. In the end they had to land Matilda Frog flamethrowing tanks which basically drove up to the cave entrances and burnt them out. A lot of Japanese got out into the jungle, but then the Australians had to defend the tunnel entrances as the Japanese tried to get back in.
There's was no D&D. There was a lot of hard fighting.