Attacking bunkers

[Big Insect]

Six to Hit & Six to Save is the intention for BB weapons. Exactly as Ithoriel states.

The reason for Six to hit is not anything to do with its size - it is to do with the fact that you need to hit most big bunkers in the right place to do them (or their occupants) any significant damage.

In the game 'Bunkers' can range from a small (ish) Japanese log-bunker right up to a Maginot Line type monolithic building.
For the bigger western reinforced concrete type bunkers - particularly on the Atlantic Wall - you could play a house rule based on 'Hit on a 3' but 'Save on a 3'. We use that sometimes in FWC for assaults on large fortified complexes.

You also had the situation in the Winter War, where the Finns repeatedly poured water over their bunkers to create a dense layer of ice over the surface, in addition to the concrete and steel structure. The only disadvantage to this was that it made the bunkers look glossy black and so they stood our against the snow - although some defenders then ended up applying a painted on white camo as well. How you'd reflect the protection of an 'enhanced' bunker like that is a good question - but the soviets dealt with them by driving their big tracked 'mortars' up to within a couple of hundred yards and shooting at the bunkers over open sights!

As with all things BKC - it really does depend upon the level of extraction you want to go to. I am sure that all of the weapons listed by Sultanbev would have some sort of BB capability, but against different types of bunkers they would be more or less effective. The BB designations is easily added at the extra points cost showing for Special Abilities, as you see fit in your own game.
NB: this is not a set of WW2 siege rules - the section on fortifications and fighting in buildings is added very much as an 'add-on'.

[Raider4]

How do you destroy a bunker ?

617 Squadron and a dozen Tallboys?*


* The 1945 version of "Take off and nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure".

[Amra]

Cheers Big Insect ,that helps
It's hit on 6 and saves on 6
But how many hits does a bunker take ?

[Big Insect]

6
Hits come off like other units at the end of the turns and Bunkers cannot be suppressed (but Occupants can).
Cheers

[Ithoriel]

6
Hits come off like other units at the end of the turns and Bunkers cannot be suppressed (but Occupants can).
Cheers

So you need an average of 36 dice to demolish a pillbox? Presumably the nano-repair-bots fix a pillbox that has taken 5 or less hits?

Our version with 2 hits for an earth and wood bunker, 3 for a concrete one, 4 for a medium structure and 6 only for the largest command posts or gun batteries and with hits not slowly recovering every turn, unlike troops, looks very feeble by comparison.

[Amra]

Thanks,is that in the rules anywhere I missed ?
The only bunker buster has 5 shots , so better activate lots of times !

[Big Insect]

So you need an average of 36 dice to demolish a pillbox? Presumably the nano-repair-bots fix a pillbox that has taken 5 or less hits?

Our version with 2 hits for an earth and wood bunker, 3 for a concrete one, 4 for a medium structure and 6 only for the largest command posts or gun batteries and with hits not slowly recovering every turn, unlike troops, looks very feeble by comparison.

That looks like a very sensible approach
The thing for me from a mechanism approach is consistency - if you keep hits on units, I'd suggest you keep them on fortifications, and vice-versa.
As stated previously - the 'challenge' is that of course a single Bunker model actually represents more than just 1 Bunker on the table.

Cheers
Mark

[Ithoriel]

We allow regular units to recover 1 hit at the end of their player turn. Elite recover two. Greens and Fanatics none. It is not possible to recover the last hit point, so units once damaged become a little easier to kill. So ... consistency? .... what's that? :-D

It does mean that it is worth pulling regulars and elites back to recover, if you can.

[Ithoriel]

Thanks,is that in the rules anywhere I missed ?
The only bunker buster has 5 shots , so better activate lots of times !

Our little group tends to take the rules as written as suggestions and a starting point, following Douglas Bader's dictum,"Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools." If we haven't added at least half a dozen house rules to a rule set we probably haven't played them.

[Itinerant Hobbyist]

Great discussion and this kind of flexibility is what I like about BKC

[pbeccas]

As someone posted above, keep it simple stupid.   

Leave the hard stuff for hex and counter games. 

[Itinerant Hobbyist]

As someone posted above, keep it simple stupid.   

Leave the hard stuff for hex and counter games. 

AMEN BROTHER

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

What was the answer?

[Amra]

Haha ,i think the answer is there is a hole in the rules as written and its not covered so ,

I'm leaning towards a bunker is hit on 6s ,saves on 6s and takes 6 hits . I would leave hits on to represent the gradual degradation of a structure ( could also be a house )

[Big Insect]

What was the answer?

What was your question?

Bunkers are 6 to hit, saves on 6 and 6 hits, with hits coming off as per other units, the bunker cannot be suppressed, but occupants can
Or (if you want to play a game against a major bunker network) 3 to hit, save on a 3, 12 hits and hits stay on the bunker (not the occupants) .... but it all depends upon what bunker type you are wanting to depict.

The CWC house rule on Bunkers works well in BCK (IMHO)

[Amra]

Sure ,my question was where in the rules does it say how many hits a bunker/building takes and when they come off .

Please understand ,I'm a big fan of the rules and love the games they generate .I'm not try to denigrate your hard (& successful ) work .

This isn't a mission critical aspect of the rules , as many have posted we can always do a house rule . I just wanted to check I hadn't missed anything

[Big Insect]

The other thing missing from the Fortification section is 'Turret Bunkers' - to represent the use of tank turrets on top of small underground bunkers - as used by the Germans and Russians on the Eastern front (e.g. Mark IV turrets and T34 turrets etc)

My suggested house rules for these are:
Hit on a 5-6 for direct fire (LoS) and a 6 for Area Template (artillery or air) or LoF fire (on-table mortars or artillery) - due to lower profile and underground (added protection) but no +d:6 for flanks or rear shots.
Saves are always on a 3+ for shooting and a 4+ for assault.
They shoots at same factors as the original tank - but no +1 for under half range for AP (reduced or removed MGs)
Buy them at same cost as the original tank and they have same number of hits as the original tank.
They can be assaulted by infantry in same way as tank units but the infantry get a +1 d:6 in assault, representing the reduced vision for the 'Turret Bunker' crews (but they have no flanks or rears - so no additional d:6 for that)
They can be Suppressed as per 'normal' units. Units ignore any Fall-back results.

Hope that is helpful?
As stated elsewhere, I will look at producing a set of 'optional rules' as a PDF on Fortifications (but it will need to go to the back of the list after CWC, Korea, FWC)
Cheers
Mark

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Mark - WORK FASTER 

[Raider4]

The other thing missing from the Fortification section is 'Turret Bunkers' - to represent the use of tank turrets on top of small underground bunkers - as used by the Germans and Russians on the Eastern front (e.g. Mark IV turrets and T34 turrets etc)

Also obsolete Panzer II and Renault FT turrest used in Normandy, and there's at least one photo of a Panther turret in Berlin in '45, but that may be an improvised buried tank rather than a dedicated bunker.

For a real goodie, Austrått Fort in Norway - a turret off of the battlecruiser Gneisenau. Stunned to learn the thing weighs 800 tons!


Edit: Yay! Promotion. Doubles all around.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

They also used panther turrets in Italy!