Napoleonic

[Zippee]

I'm not sure I have a dog in this 'fight' .  I have no evidence to show what is commercial and what isn't except to say that, after WW2, the Napoleonic period has been the second most popular period for as long as I can remember and my wargaming memory goes back to 1963.  Everything else has always trailed behind these two periods.  I'm fairly confident that any Napoleonic range would be at least as commercial as The Indian Mutiny.  I don't understand why Napoleonic 1805-1807 options are so difficult.  Is this a 10mm issue that I'm not aware of?

Pretty sure there's no fight but I don't think we're moving the conversation forward either.

WWII, Napoleonics and Ancients are the three 'Big Periods' and it's always been the case that Romans (Anc), French (Naps) and Germans (WWII) are the big sellers in each. And within that it's Early Imperial Romans, 1812 French and Normandy Germans that sell more than anything else. It's just a wargaming popularity thing and is reflected in those being the most frequently produced ranges. The less popular ranges do eventually arrive, increasingly so in our modern 'Golden Age' but the trend persists.

It's absolutely not just a 10mm thing, it's all figure sizes. It's a general truism that the internet, KS and ease of small specialised business practice is eroding but it's still a general truism.

It's sad but less popular ranges don't get made [or even more commonly don't get fleshed out sufficiently and with opposition - I can think of a number of incomplete Rev War French ranges with no Austrian opposition because "there isn't the demand"] because they're less popular. Without availability those periods don't get played, ergo they remain less popular. It's a self-fulfilling spiral.

I'm not espousing 'make them and players will arrive' because I sadly think most players will continue following well-worn paths anyway. I just find it frustrating  :-

More positively, NON-KS would seem to be an excellent model for developing new and supplementary ranges. If there is a demand the customer will step up, if they don't then it's a reasonable conclusion that there isn't a wide spread demand. But, the range may still get made if one or two people buy-in sufficiently. That seems like a good way to get less popular periods into the arena.

[Chad]

Zippee

Agreed.

Just on the French Revolutionary Austrians, what scale are you referring to? I have 15mm and 28mm is presently growing.

Chad

[John Cook]

Zippee,  Of course there is no fight, hence, as I said, the inverted commas. 

The difficulties I have are manifold and I'm unconvinced with with the arguments as to why Napoleonics aren't viable, economic or whatever.  You may be right but it all seems to be based on perceptions, rather than any verifiable market research.

It seems to me that if French Napoleonics are big sellers, as you claim, and I'm sure you are right, then their opponents must be equally big sellers, otherwise there are lots of people out there with no opponents for the French armies.  That makes no sense at all. 

I would like to see something concrete to persuade me that early Napoleonic ranges are not commercial.  I have both armies for Maida in 15mm which must date back to the 1990s.  So, some convincing market research, or something more than what seems to be little more than perceptions, seems necessary.

A quick look shows that at least four mainstream 15mm manufactures produce figures to cover the period from 1805 to 1815.  I couldn't be bothered to look at 25/28mm manufacturers.  So, have these people got it wrong?  If they haven't, it is either a perception that early Napoleonics are not commercial, is incorrect or is an issue with 10mm (or a hypothesis I haven't thought of).  I don't know which it is but I am confident it is one of them.  If I were to bet my pension I'd go for perception since the two mainstream 6mm manufactures cover the entire period from 1803 to 1815 as comprehensively as it is possible to want (perhaps size is an issue after all).

For what it is worth, the last Wargames Illustrated poll resulted in the following:

WW2 – 31%
Napoleonic – 13%
Sc-ifi – 7%
Pike and Shot – 7%
Dark Age – 7%
Ancient – 7%
Modern – 6%
Fantasy – 5%
American Civil War – 4%
Colonial – 4%
Medieval – 3%
Horse and Musket – 3%
American War of Independence – 2%
WW1 – 1%

The non-KS route would certainly be an indication of commercial appeal, among people who use the Pendraken forum anyway.  Let's start with the Peninsula.   

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Eureka go earlier don't they?

Anyway, 1806 Prussians would be in my.list, if I could ever find a decent set of rules.

[Zippee]

Zippee,  Of course there is no fight, hence, as I said, the inverted commas. 

The difficulties I have are manifold and I'm unconvinced with with the arguments as to why Napoleonics aren't viable, economic or whatever.  You may be right but it all seems to be based on perceptions, rather than any verifiable market research.

Of cocurse its based on perception, there's little else to materially base opinion on.

And I never said Napoleonics are uncommercial - that would be patently absurd, it is one of the Big Three.

I'm mostly unfamiliar with 15mm and 28mm Napoleonic ranges in any detail but I am aware that there are early ranges available.  I suspect it is easier to be 'comprehensive' in 6mm and 10mm than the large scales - those uniform details start to increase the variety of sculpts required.

You'll note I specifically called out Rev War ranges in my last post. The two big 6mm options for instance whilst having a very comprehensive Napoleonic range (including French in bicorn) have either no Rev War range or one that consists of French only and the consistent response to "where are the Austrians?" has been "there's no demand for them, it's uncommercial" and that's not opinion, that's pretty much a direct quote from trying to drum up financial backing for an Austrian range to be created. The 10mm options likewise seem very limited - the only range that contains French and Austrians is Pendraken's which would be great if it also contained other essentials like artillery and cavalry . . .

Perception it may be but If I wanted to purchase forces for 1812, the Peninsular or 1815 I'd be spolit for choice in all scales. Start looking for comprehensive rages in the earlier periods and your options rapidly thin out and start looking for Rev War and it's very thin on the ground. Not impossible, so we no longer need to butcher Airfix miniatures by the thousand but there's a definite quantative difference.

[John Cook]

What did you mean, then, when you said that 1805 French "are not really a commercial option"?  Rhetorical question.  I'm not really interested in the French Revolutionary Wars. 

[Ithoriel]

As far as most of the gamers I've played with over the last few years have been concerned, the Napoleonic Wars consist of Waterloo, Borodino and The Peninsular War. There may have been some other minor scraps of no importance.

One was even unaware the The Russians and The Prussians were separate entities and not just alternate spellings!

I blame the school system - too much Home Front and not enough Kings and battles :-)

[Not Drowning, Waving]

At least they could name those battles of significance.
I've met some twenty somethings who had not heard of WWI. More frightening still some knew nothing of WWII... But I guess they would know stuff I don't, so I can't get too carried away...

[John Cook]

Unsurprising but depressing nevertheless.  As the 70 anniversary of the outbreak of WW2 approaches next month, one of those surveys that appear from time to time showed that British teenagers are largely ignorant of that conflict.  If they don't know about stuff that took place in living memory, there is little chance they will know much about stuff that happened 200 years ago. 

[mollinary]

Unsurprising but depressing nevertheless.  As the 70 anniversary of the outbreak of WW2 approaches next month, one of those surveys that appear from time to time showed that British teenagers are largely ignorant of that conflict.  If they don't know about stuff that took place in living memory, there is little chance they will know much about stuff that happened 200 years ago. 

Sorry John, shouldn't that be 80th Anniversary?

[John Cook]

Sorry John, shouldn't that be 80th Anniversary?

No need to apologise.  Yes it should, as you very well know. 

[Zippee]

What did you mean, then, when you said that 1805 French "are not really a commercial option"?  Rhetorical question.

i meant in the context of the broad brush approach of each major nation having three major uniform distinctions - early-mid-late if you like.

And that if then selecting which one of those to produce 1805 French were the least commerically attractive option and would be better folded into a Rev War range

I'm not really interested in the French Revolutionary Wars. 

Kind of backs up what I was saying

[Chad]

So if I understand you correctly, because of significant changes in French uniforms for 1805-1807 it is not worth considering the period, even if the changes in Russian, Prussian and Austrian were either not significant or non-existent.

As for 'backing' the French into the Revolutionary period, that would require an even greater range of opposing armies than 1895-07.

[John Cook]

I'm not interested in the French Revolutionary Wars, in the context of this thread, because it is about the Napoleonic Wars, which the Revolutionary Wars are not and I'm not sure I know enough about them to make a contribution.  In a gaming context I have no interest in Waterloo but I'm not sure what that backs up.
I remain unconvinced by your arguments about the commercial viability of a range of early French figures, mainly because it is subjective.  I concede that you could be right, but the only empirical evidence, I have seen, is that all principal manufacturers of figures, in all scales, all have Third and Fourth Coalition ranges and that is all I have to go on.
Is it time to draw this to a close?

[Chad]

John

That's fine with me as it is not really going anywhere.

[Zippee]

fine with me
i don't think its been going anywhere for a while

[Barbarossa]

Good morning and Happy New Year to you all. I wanted to know if there would be anything new about the Napoleonic period in 2020. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[Leon]

Good morning and Happy New Year to you all. I wanted to know if there would be anything new about the Napoleonic period in 2020. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

We'll be running a Not-Kickstarter for a Peninsular expansion, around May-June time I think, covering British, Spanish and Portuguese.  We've also got some later French Guard types to get released but I don't have a timescale on that yet.

[Sandyfalkirk]

We'll be running a Not-Kickstarter for a Peninsular expansion, around May-June time I think, covering British, Spanish and Portuguese.  We've also got some later French Guard types to get released but I don't have a timescale on that yet.

Count me in for that ta much!

[Leon]

Count me in for that ta much!