Napoleonic

[Leman]

Hi, I would like to know if there are going to be novelties for the Napoleonic period. Especially to complete the range Waterloo but also for the French, Imperial Guard for example. Thank you very much. 

How about a wet Irish lad running around waving his arms in the air shouting, "Why, why?" I'm afraid I have always found it a particularly naff film which again put me off Napoleonics as a teenage wargamer.

[Chad]

It should be done by period if it is going to be expanded at all. 1805-1807 for example would cover French, Austrian, Russian and Prussian with few if any variations in uniform needed.

[Zippee]

How about a wet Irish lad running around waving his arms in the air shouting, "Why, why?" I'm afraid I have always found it a particularly naff film which again put me off Napoleonics as a teenage wargamer.

Indeed the problem of slapping contemporary morality into period films [any genre] these bits mak me cringe too.

[Zippee]

It should be done by period if it is going to be expanded at all. 1805-1807 for example would cover French, Austrian, Russian and Prussian with few if any variations in uniform needed.

Except whilst that works well as a campaign divider all three of those nations are in the midst of evolving uniforms - the French change dramatically part way through, the others continue to slowly change. And even if we can ignore some of the colour variations for a figure range, changes in hats we can't. And that means if you elect to produce a French 1805-07 range you are essentially choosing an 1805 range or an 1806-07 range. For Austria you choose a 1798 range or an 1806 range, etc. And then we can start arguing about the difference between uniform decree dates and uniform supply dates.

Much though I love my 1805 French in bicorn (and I have a sizeable 6mm army) I have to accept that they are not really a commercial option. Better to produce 1806 shako French that will essentially serve as is through to 1812 becuase they'll selve in droves - that's essentially the existing 1809 range and it is the sensible commercial choice. That means that bicorn wearing French get relegated to the 1792-1804 Revolutionary War range, the style won't be quite right for 1805 but close enough if you pick the neater regular options that shoule be available alongside the rag-tag options. And bardin regulation French to 1813-15 which will be commercially competative because (for reasons I find inexplicable) those late campaigns are very popular.

The same for Russia (pre and post 1810), Austria (pre and post 1806) and Prussia (per and post 1808), we need both options to cover the campaigns of 1805-15. We've made a great start with the "1809" range as it stands - an Austrian German fusilier in shako and Hungarian fusilier in helmet would see Austria complete for 1805-15. The next commercial option has to be the additions necessary to plump out the Peninsular options (not my cup of tea but you can't ignore its popularity) which also arounds out the core French 1806-12 options. We have yet to see what the Imperial Guard range looks like, I understand its sitting in the wings awaiting deployment but assuming its reasonably comprehensive all we're left scrabbling for afterward would be Russians (pre and post 1810), pre 1808 Prussians and post 1813 French.

[Chad]

Zippee

I understand the commercial aspects, but would comment as follows on the hats issue:

French - Whilst the shako was authoprised in 1806, I would question if the army actually received them for the 1806-7 campaign. Bearing in mind that the army was based in Germany after the 1805 campaign and did not return to France, it is entirely possible that to issue the new shako to the army was impractical.

Austrian - My understanding is that the shako was initially only issued to a number of Hungarian regiments in 1807 and was not in general issue until 1808. On that basis the raupenhelm for 1805 is OK and indeed is actually in the current 1809 range.

Prussia - This is the biggest problem. Just as the 1806 uniform is distinctly different to the 1808 version, it is also completely different from that of the Revolutionary War.

Russia - The February 1805 shako does not change in any significant detail until 1809 and as such should be valid for 1805-1807.

In 10mm, I have to admit to be unconcerned about minor changes in the general uniform.

Chad

[Westmarcher]

... And bardin regulation French to 1813-15 which will be commercially competative because (for reasons I find inexplicable) those late campaigns are very popular ....

Particularly 1813-14 which is only two years out of 12 years of wars. At a guess (on 1813-14);
- there were no major changes to the uniforms of the other major powers?
- the greater flexibility of pitting combinations of these powers against the French in any one battle?
- a more equal chance of either side winning?

[Chad]

However, as I pointed out previously the absence of Prussian Reserve Units is an obstacle.

[John Cook]

However, as I pointed out previously the absence of Prussian Reserve Units is an obstacle.

I think you can source surrogates for every kind of Prussian Reserve Infantry from the 1815 range.  The Hanoverian range, I now see, has infantry in caps.   The main impediment, for me anyway, is lack of French line infantry or Young Guard in habit-veste. 

[John Cook]

....Much though I love my 1805 French in bicorn (and I have a sizeable 6mm army) I have to accept that they are not really a commercial option. Better to produce 1806 shako French that will essentially serve as is through to 1812 becuase they'll selve in droves - that's essentially the existing 1809 range and it is the sensible commercial choice....

Zippee, There would only be a point in producing Napoleonic French infantry in bicornes if there was an Austerlitz/Jena range of Russians and Prussians.  I'm not sure that you are right about viability though - Magister Millitums range would suggest otherwise..  French line infantry were still in bicornes exclusively at Jena and Auerstedt. 

I would certainly invest in an 1806 range but I'd rather see the Peninsula done first. 

The Austrians are, it seems to me, covered for the entire period by the 1809 range. 

[Zippee]

Zippee, There would only be a point in producing Napoleonic French infantry in bicornes if there was an Austerlitz/Jena range of Russians and Prussians.  I'm not sure that you are right about viability though - Magister Millitums range would suggest otherwise..  French line infantry were still in bicornes exclusively at Jena and Auerstedt. 

I would certainly invest in an 1806 range but I'd rather see the Peninsula done first. 

The Austrians are, it seems to me, covered for the entire period by the 1809 range. 

Indeed you need the complimentary opponents for any range.

Compared to 1807/12 and 1813/15 French, 1805/06 are the least commercial French was all I was really saying. In the same way that 1806 Prussian are less commercial than 1808/15 or 1805/10 Russian are less commecial than 1811/15. And that has a compound effect because as we said you need the complimentary opponents.

Peninsular next makes the most sense (hopefully alongside the IG)

Almost we need the Austrian/German in shako and Austrian/HHungarian in helmet - that would cover us from Marengo through 1815. Figure wise Austrians are the easiest - the stingy commisariat does us a fvaour in that 

[FierceKitty]

Indeed you need the complimentary opponents for any range.

Ones who praise your painting and terrain, and say "Well done!" sincerely when you pull a sneaky move?

[Zippee]

Ones who praise your painting and terrain, and say "Well done!" sincerely when you pull a sneaky move?

only seems to happen when playing solo

[Chad]

Not sure differentiating 1805/1806 from 1807 is necessary. 1805 Russians would be good for 1807 and 1806 Prussians would be similarly valid for 1807 if only a small force. (Lestocq at Eylau). Again bicorne French would probably be valid for Pultusk and Eylau if only in part, with shakos appearing throughout at Friedland.

[Zippee]

Not sure differentiating 1805/1806 from 1807 is necessary. 1805 Russians would be good for 1807 and 1806 Prussians would be similarly valid for 1807 if only a small force. (Lestocq at Eylau). Again bicorne French would probably be valid for Pultusk and Eylau if only in part, with shakos appearing throughout at Friedland.

But that wasn't what I said - given the choice of producing a French range in bicorns suitable for 1805 through 1806 maybe 1807 and producing a range of French in shako suitable for 1806/07 through 1812 the latter is clearly the sensible commercial decision.

As a result the commercial choice for Russia and Prussia is the late option.

Therefore the 1805-07 options kind of deselect themselves, or at best get left until after all other sub-periods are done. The only think rarer are Scadinavians and Turkish/Persian opposition for Russia

[John Cook]

I'm not sure I have a dog in this 'fight' .  I have no evidence to show what is commercial and what isn't except to say that, after WW2, the Napoleonic period has been the second most popular period for as long as I can remember and my wargaming memory goes back to 1963.  Everything else has always trailed behind these two periods.  I'm fairly confident that any Napoleonic range would be at least as commercial as The Indian Mutiny.  I don't understand why Napoleonic 1805-1807 options are so difficult.  Is this a 10mm issue that I'm not aware of?

[Chad]

John I don't think it is a fight as such, just a friendly discussion (I hope). The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities. Only two manufacturers at present have 10mm figures for 1805-1807 at present. The modelling for one is of average quality and for the other the Russian infantry is badly researched and simply wrong.

[Leon]

The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities.

I think this will be our method going forward with the Naps expansions.  It makes sure that what we're doing is viable, and also allows us to get large batches done in one go.

[Ben Waterhouse]

Chill Winston, I know that eventually P will even do Danish Riflemen...

[John Cook]

John I don't think it is a fight as such, just a friendly discussion (I hope). The simple answer would be to run a non-Kickstarter as was done for the 1809 expansion to gauge the interest level and determine the commercial possibilities. Only two manufacturers at present have 10mm figures for 1805-1807 at present. The modelling for one is of average quality and for the other the Russian infantry is badly researched and simply wrong.

Of course not, hence the inverted commas.  I suppose the two manufacturers you allude to would be Magister Militum and Old Glory, neither of which I am familiar with, in the context of their Russian Napoleonic's, enough to comment.  My present interest is confined to the early Peninsula. 

[FierceKitty]

Chill Winston, I know that eventually P will even do Danish Riflemen...

I thought Danes were entirely confined to, nay, defined by,  i) vikings; ii) sulky princes given to monologues; iii) sugary buns; iv) mermaids; and v) topless auxilliary traffic cops.