Brandt 60mm gun mortar

[Sunray]

Not a piece of kit I am familiar with. The French used them on Panhard A/C (it is muzzle loading). Would it be effective against armour ? How would it compare with say the Saladin's 76mm?

[fred.]

Just googled this - as you said muzzle loading I wonder if it was like the spigot bombs the Germans used on their 37mm ATG to extend their life.

But its actually breach loading - which is very unusual for a mortar. It apparently has a shaped charged round for anti-armour use. I would guess this would be similar in effect to early bazookas which were of similar calibre??

Can't see much about effectiveness.

[Ithoriel]

According to Wikipedia:

"The French-made Brandt 60 mm LR Gun-mortar is a very unusual mortar, which is capable of firing like a gun. It is a smoothbore weapon that uses the same fin-stabilized bombs as normal 60 mm infantry mortars. These bombs can be breech-loaded within the vehicle on which the mortar is mounted, or drop-loaded in the usual mortar fashion.

Ammunition
The Gun-mortar can fire the standard infantry 60 mm bomb; but, to give the weapon increased anti-armour capability, it is also provided with a high-velocity fin-stabilized armour-piercing shot and a fin-stabilized shaped-charge bomb."

I'd expect it to be less accurate and therefore less effective than a rifled weapon. There again, my understanding is that mortar rounds pack more of a punch than equivalent diameter shells. According to a source I read recently, WW2 Soviet 120mm mortars had much the same effect as 155mm artillery rounds.

[fred.]

There again, my understanding is that mortar rounds pack more of a punch than equivalent diameter shells. According to a source I read recently, WW2 Soviet 120mm mortars had much the same effect as 155mm artillery rounds.

Yes, for HE, mortar bombs tend to be more effective than HE Shells of the same calibre - as the mortar has lower muzzle velocity and therefore lower forces on the projectile, the projectile casing can be lighter than an equivalent one fired from a gun. Therefore as you have less shell, you can have more explosive. I don't know if having less shell reduces the amount of shrapnel that is generated, but it will certainly increase the HE blast.

[Sunray]

Sorry, I meant breech loading l- too early in the morning. The French Panhard came with an alternative big 90mm, so the 60mm was the smaller weapon load - couldn't help thinking a cannon would be more effective.

[toxicpixie]

Working from memory of some excellent discussion on the old Peter Pig yahoo! Group, the 60mm was exceptionally useful for the type of fighting the Panhard was usually engaged in - vicious "low intensity"/coin-ish ops (is being shot by an insurgent less intense than being shot by a Warpac conscript?! I digress), as having a nippy self spotting mortar on an armoured car meant you could race up wherever needed and drop decent amounts of accurate high rate of fire HE or smoke from relative safety. Wow betide you if you missed an RPG team or similar though...

The 90mm wasn't a great antitank weapon (low velocity shaped charge, relatively awkward and inaccurate) but was passable with a HE equivalent round for soft Athens and sufficient for most armoured threats it was likely to encounter at least up to the late seventies.

That's from memory but the discussion did include people who had used them in anger or at least  deployed with people who had

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Designed in the 50's to replace the Ferret which was used for counter-insurgency. French army wanted more firepower.

IanS

[Sunray]

Working from memory of some excellent discussion on the old Peter Pig yahoo! Group, the 60mm was exceptionally useful for the type of fighting the Panhard was usually engaged in - vicious "low intensity"/coin-ish ops (is being shot by an insurgent less intense than being shot by a Warpac conscript?! I digress), as having a nippy self spotting mortar on an armoured car meant you could race up wherever needed and drop decent amounts of accurate high rate of fire HE or smoke from relative safety. Wow betide you if you missed an RPG team or similar though...

The 90mm wasn't a great antitank weapon (low velocity shaped charge, relatively awkward and inaccurate) but was passable with a HE equivalent round for soft Athens and sufficient for most armoured threats it was likely to encounter at least up to the late seventies.

That's from memory but the discussion did include people who had used them in anger or at least  deployed with people who had

Yes, makes perfect sense for a bush war.   Did the Chad forces use the 90mm against Libyan backed insurgents with  T.55s ?

[toxicpixie]

I believe so, yes - they tended to be used in close range ambush (sub 300m) in conjunction with Toyota mounted MILAN. No safe place to hide OR to run to, if you were a Libyan tanker post '86!

South African Elands (same vehicle manufactured locally) were used much the same, and finding that they had to be right up at point blank range on flanks or rear was part of what spurred their retirement in favour of the interim Ratal (with the same not so useful 90mm gun, or the very handy Leopard ATGM!) and then the Rooikat with the 76mm gun (or possibly 105mm - am really not sure if that was export only or if they upgunned their own?).

[Sunray]

I believe so, yes - they tended to be used in close range ambush (sub 300m) in conjunction with Toyota mounted MILAN. No safe place to hide OR to run to, if you were a Libyan tanker post '86!

Quite- the Milan was a game changer in terms of mobility, range and effectiveness on conventional armour.  To those in Support Company it was and is, marginally just man portable. 

[toxicpixie]

Yeah, I've never had to carry one in anger but I have tried to pick them up on display and "man portable if you're a power lifter" seemed more appropriate

I'd stick one in the back of the Fiesta but as a/ I've buggered the boot lock and b/ it's a hatch back, it probably wouldn't be of much use

[Sunray]

As a point of interest how do the various modern rules rate the AML in 90mm and 60mm armament ? As said above it seems a very useful bush war piece of kit.

[toxicpixie]

My major use of them is in old AK-47 which is very "elastic". The 60 is "armoured car with mortar" and the 90 "armoured car with tank gun"!

[Sunray]

Yes, AK47 rules were elastic to say the least.  Has anyone played the ALM 60 and 90 with CWC ?   

[toxicpixie]

We played a bit of "not-AK" with CWC - can't remember if they were in the lists and I sawed the Recce ability off or if I bodged stats for them!

I'll have a look at my army lists and see when I'm at my main machine on Monday

Ofc I may not have used them at all!