21st Panzer Division orbats

[old smokie]

starting to build my 21st Panzer Division and was wondering whats the best orbat to go with. I have the Micromark one, Battlefront WW2, Flames of War and Rapid Fire. Looking for historical acurracy.

Any recommended books on the division I should be reading, don't own any at present.

TIA

[Subedai]

I can recommend the Nafziger The German Order of Battle Panzers and Artillery in World War II which has several pages devoted to the formation. If you don't have access to that volume Nafziger has an online set of Orbats...the only problem is that the headers are not all that helpful and a fair bit of trawling is needed.

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The "BGMR WWII" one. In reality, which one ? Desert or NWE. For NWE Panzers in Normandy by after the battle is good. Bear in mind for Western Desert it changed on an hourly basis, during Crusader Rommel attacked Egypt with about 15 tanks from both 15th and 21st and at least some were being towed.

IanS

[old smokie]

oops   should have said, its Normandy 1944 I'm looking at

@ Ianrs54 whats BGMR WWII

[fsn]

Bruce Quarrie (Tank Battles in Miniature) says:

22nd pz rgt; 125 pz gren; 192 pz gren; 155 artillery; 21 recce; 200 at bttin; 305 flak; 200 sturm bttn. 22nd Pz rgt badly torn up in Normandy and replaced by the 200th Rgt.

Brig Peter Young  (D-Day) says 21st Pz had about 170 armoured vehicles on 6th June. Lost about half in the first few days of fighting.

John Keegan (6 Armies in Normandy) says 21st Pz had 3 bttys of SP artillery at one btty of 75mm an 105mm guns on French chassis. Adds Pz Pionier bttn 220. Suggests 22nd Pz rgt was equipped with Pz IV. AT bttn had 88mm AT.

[fsn]

http://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/late21pzd6jun44.pdf
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations/150-germany-heer/heer-divisionen/4031-21-panzer-division
http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/ger1.htm
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11456

Some French tanks in 22nd Pz Rgt (S35s (?))

[Sandinista]

I can recommend the Nafziger The German Order of Battle Panzers and Artillery in World War II which has several pages devoted to the formation. If you don't have access to that volume Nafziger has an online set of Orbats...the only problem is that the headers are not all that helpful and a fair bit of trawling is needed.

http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll11/id/1277/filename/1278.pdf

This one has titles makes searching easier

Cheers
Ian

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Von Luck says his regiment had long barrelled Panzer IVH, whereas the twinned regiment was still trailing and had 'short barrelled panzers' (presumably earlier marks or Panzer IIIN) that they got rid of as quickly as possible!

[paulr]

Von Luck says his regiment had long barrelled Panzer IVH, whereas the twinned regiment was still trailing and had 'short barrelled panzers' (presumably earlier marks or Panzer IIIN) that they got rid of as quickly as possible!

von Luck commanded PzGrenadier Regiment 125

Only one Pz Regiment, 22 (renumbered from 100 not late May), in division
First battalion had Pz IVG or Pz IVH, second battalion Soumas, H39 and possibly some Pz IVG, Pz IVH and/or Pz IVC

Note there is considerable doubt that the Soumas and H39 were used in action. One explanation is that the crews were being trained on newly delivered Pz IV

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

In answer to the question it's the WWII version of Battle Group Modern Rules, available via a Yahoo group. Fair few files there. If you are looking at 44 then I'd hunt up a copy of Panzersin Normandy.

IanS

[NTM]

Von Luck says his regiment had long barrelled Panzer IVH, whereas the twinned regiment was still trailing and had 'short barrelled panzers' (presumably earlier marks or Panzer IIIN) that they got rid of as quickly as possible!

Only one company, the 8th, had short 75 PzIV. 1-4 had a full compliment of long barrel versions and 5-7 had about a platoon worth each on D-day.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

von Luck commanded PzGrenadier Regiment 125

Only one Pz Regiment, 22 (renumbered from 100 not late May), in division
First battalion had Pz IVG or Pz IVH, second battalion Soumas, H39 and possibly some Pz IVG, Pz IVH and/or Pz IVC

Note there is considerable doubt that the Soumas and H39 were used in action. One explanation is that the crews were being trained on newly delivered Pz IV

It's been a while since I read it, sorry.

[Subedai]

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll11/id/1277/filename/1278.pdf

This one has titles makes searching easier

Cheers
Ian

Excellent! Thanks for posting that link, makes it so much easier.

[NTM]

Any serious student of 21. Panzer in Normandy should probably get this book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Combat-History-Panzer-Division-1943-45/dp/1907677712

[mart678]

Check out orbats on Battlefront WW2 forum very accurate orbats on there

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Check out orbats on Battlefront WW2 forum very accurate orbats on there

Only if they coincide with the models battlefront make. Lots of silly things in them.

IanS

[NTM]

Ian Battlefront WWII is from the guys behind Fire and Fury not the FoW Battlefront. They share the name as they were going to work together on models and rules but Military Miniatures as were decided to go alone after a meeting with Phil Yates. So we've had a decade of confusion over the Battlefront name without taking in to account the computer game.

Upshot is the research behind the Battlefront WWII orbats is second to none especially if done by R Mark Davies and the 21.Panzer is. You do lose a bit of detail though with the 1:2 or 3 ratio used.

http://www.fireandfury.com/extra/ordersofbattle.shtml

[Westmarcher]

Any serious student of 21. Panzer in Normandy should probably get this book

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Combat-History-Panzer-Division-1943-45/dp/1907677712

Looks like a real goody - but at £47+ for the Hardcover (gulp!), you will have to be very seriously into 21 Panzer!

[old smokie]

thanks all, managed to get a copy of The Combat History of the 21st Panzer Division for £21