Add your suggestions / feedback / input!

[sane max]

"yet the rules don't allow them to engage AFV. The but here is that if the mortar is off table it becomes artillery, and can. "


can't they? we are playing it wrong then ! Doncha just hate it when you find that out? all those tanks I have lost to on-table mortars dammit (they are deadly, I agree, especially if you play it wrong)  

[toxicpixie]

The points and limitations are the worst part of the rules. I see this game a scenario driven system, which works best at a brigade/Rgt level. The limitations are therefore fairly silly. That said some restrictions on artillery should be made.

Sillies in the rules are based around mortars, which should have an area effect, and cant fire smoke, which is one of their main rolls. Futher the tank commander at Admin Box in Burma 45 was most scared of the Japanese mortars - yet the rules don't allow them to engage AFV. The but here is that if the mortar is off table it becomes artillery, and can.

IanS

Um.

1 / In BKC mortars can engage AFVs - they just hit Open ones on 5+ and fully enclosed on 6's. They don't in CWC, but that's a different kettle of fish!

2/ We've always allowed them to fire smoke. Maybe not officially written in, but it's what they were often used for so... probably needs to be mentioned specifically though, and make sure there's a penalty - smoke rounds were carried but in a minority (barring the UK 2") so worth reiterating the -1 CV for firing smoke? That should cover it without needing to track how many smoke bombs you've got left on table...

3/ Area effect - at platoon scale, that's a no - 20m to 1cm means a stand occupies @100m frontage. If you want to hit more than that, use more mortars... or have them bigger and back off table acting as "proper" arty and not the local commanders immediate response limited fire support...

4/ Points and style of game - if the point system and the min/max's and scenario system is all still there, it caters for everyone who wnats or needs it, and provides good structure to start from. You (or any others) who don't want to use it, don't have to. If it's not there you'll instantly lose the interest of (what I suspect is actually MOST) gamers who want to be easily able to play a consistent game that's at least making a stab at historical flavour.

"yet the rules don't allow them to engage AFV. The but here is that if the mortar is off table it becomes artillery, and can. "


can't they? we are playing it wrong then ! Doncha just hate it when you find that out? all those tanks I have lost to on-table mortars dammit (they are deadly, I agree, especially if you play it wrong)  

Pat - CWC (and BKC1) on table mortars are soft target only (they have the * by the fire dice); BKC II mortars all have an AT capacity as above. Assuming you're talking about BKC, you were doing it right

[sane max]

Hoorah! that makes the score so far; Pat doing it right  - 1, Pat doing it wrong, a zillion

On the topic of smoke, I think the rules for it are wrong really - the impression i get is that smoke didn't hide you that well - it made you blurry so the chances of getting hit were much smaller. Even the tiny smoke round from the 2 inch mortar was useful, as all it took was a haze to substantially improve your chances of not being shot

Pat

[Fenton]

Hoorah! that makes the score so far; Pat doing it right  - 1, Pat doing it wrong, a zillion

On the topic of smoke, I think the rules for it are wrong really - the impression i get is that smoke didn't hide you that well - it made you blurry so the chances of getting hit were much smaller. Even the tiny smoke round from the 2 inch mortar was useful, as all it took was a haze to substantially improve your chances of not being shot

Pat

How did you score - 1 for doing it right?😀

[sane max]

Dat was meant to be a dash, rather than a minus. Sigh

Pat doing it right 1, pat doing it wrong a zillion and ONE

[toxicpixie]

Hoorah! that makes the score so far; Pat doing it right  - 1, Pat doing it wrong, a zillion

On the topic of smoke, I think the rules for it are wrong really - the impression i get is that smoke didn't hide you that well - it made you blurry so the chances of getting hit were much smaller. Even the tiny smoke round from the 2 inch mortar was useful, as all it took was a haze to substantially improve your chances of not being shot

Pat

There's also the evidence that moving out of smoke gets you killed - troops and vehicles can't see out either, then emerge in "dribbles" and can be easily picked off whilst finding their bearings...

But - for "game effect" at a relatively high level I'd stick with smoke as written, I think.

[Fenton]

Dat was meant to be a dash, rather than a minus. Sigh

Pat doing it right 1, pat doing it wrong a zillion and ONE

A zillion and one things you've done wrong and you have only made 5 posts. Even for here that's impressive

[sane max]

I was referring to life in general, rather than just on here.... anyway, let's not get distracted - the re-write.

I think the consensus here already is that wounds staying on from turn to turn should stay as optrional only, but can I just say I agree very strongly with that. I  play other 'Distant cousins of Warmaster' like Black Powder, Hail Caesar etc, and my main bugbear with them is the way you end up with chits and markers all over the place; it distracts very much from the aesthetic, you use a dice as you run out of markers, then you pick up the dice and roll it absentmindedly - keep markers and or record keeping to a minimum is what I am saying. Leaving it as an option is the best course. 

[Ithoriel]

you use a dice as you run out of markers, then you pick up the dice and roll it absentmindedly - keep markers and or record keeping to a minimum is what I am saying. Leaving it as an option is the best course.

On the markers thing - we use 5mm dice a lot. Too small to pick up and roll without thinking. Small enough to sit on a base. Available in lots of colours so you can colour code markers where necessary.

[sane max]

On the markers thing - we use 5mm dice a lot. Too small to pick up and roll without thinking. Small enough to sit on a base. Available in lots of colours so you can colour code markers where necessary.

and small enough that if Fat Martin* puts his mug down hard suddenly half my units are supressed. There are plenty of ways to mark stuff on a table I agree, but all of them have some sort of drawback - keeping it simple is the best answer!

*I don't actually know anyone called Martin that is also Fat. The Martin I know is a svelte figure of a man.

[Orcs]

Hi Pat

Welcome to the Forum - nothing is sane here

The comments on artillery in BKC hve just reminded me how hate how fragile they are. tey do need some form of saving Throw.

When targeting an  artillery piece you used HE mainly to taret the crew. Most guns were knowked out by putting the crew out of action - either dead or run away. Therefore the bigger the crew the harder it should be to destroy the gun.  In BKC 2 an ** get only 3 hits a 2pdr has 5 hits.  but the crew for the 88 is much larger.  Obviously the 88 is phisically a bigger target.  I would give all anti tank guns the same value as the size of gun and the size of crew cancels each other out.

Selp propelled guns, particuarly sef propelled anti tank guns need the abilitty to shoot and scoot. I think they get the abiloity in the initiative phase to fire and move with no penalty for movement or move and fire at -1 dice or move fire move at -2 dice , This would allow them to be used more historically accurately.

Mortars need to be an area effect weapon. this could be done by giving them an appropriate beaten zone. All targets in the zone are thrown agianst using the requisite number of dice. but only 6 are kills the rest are possible suppressions. all can be saved against.  if the player opes for a less concentrted barrage it covers a bigger area but supression only.

For Smoke they dice for where the shells fall and create a smoke filed area the size of a beaten zone -  i like the idea of -1 to the CV to fire smoke to simulate the lack of smoke shells. It would also give a reason for equiping your infantry inits with 2" or 50/60mm mortars. More sales to Pendraken.

[sane max]

Therefore the bigger the crew the harder it should be to destroy the gun.

I know where you are coming from, but I always started from the assumption the 'more hits for smaller guns' was to factor in the fact they are harder to see and hit. In the desert at least, The '88 was famously easy to knock out 'cos it was a stonking great thing on the horizon that even a British Tank gunner firing a 2-pounder solid shot on the move while drinking tea and eying up Sylvia Simms can hit.

 More sales to Pendraken.

that should be my signature line! 'More Sales to Pendraken!' it has a ring to it, like 'One Land, One King!' or  'Cower Mortals! My Mother is visiting!'

[cae5ar]

Regarding the rules, I always used the BKC II optional rule of 'hits staying on.'  And the only other thing I can think of, probably also as an optional rule, is this:
1) Lower all CVs by 1
2) Each unit gets a 'free' activation.  That is, when it's your turn and you move to your first command, you do not conduct a command roll, you simply carry out one activation.  For the second activation (assuming you wish to try to get them to do something else), then you begin conducting activation rolls.  Having lowered CVs by 1, you are making sure each command gets to act at least once per turn, but their second action (first command roll) is basically at the 'normal' -1.
3) Commands that carried out their 'free' activation, but did not carry out another activation (failed their command roll), do not count as having activated and thus the CO may attempt to activate them (no free activation, he's doing command rolls from the start).

This helped us overcome all the whining (by me) regarding bad activation rolls, resulting in whole battalions not operating for several turns on end

The command activation system is the glaring elephant in the room, to my mind. It is both a strength and weakness in BKC. Let's not kid ourselves - the game engine is good but not perfect. There are some very abstract effects which cop frequent criticism from our (Sparker's) group most times we play.

I like Jack's free activation suggestion (above). This would resolve the most common reproach from frustrated players, who watch their units sit and do nothing all battle. Even if it was tweaked to be some sort of "initiative move" a la Black Powder, where units close to the enemy could do something automatically, it might do the trick and prevent unreasonable command paralysis.

Alternatively, with possibly less ripple on effect, you could cap activations for each unit to three. This will avoid the runaway effect of super troops and reduce the frustration of missing activations for the other side.

[Ithoriel]

Initiative phase, page 10 of rulebook, if you're not playing that then no wonder you are unhappy with the activation system.

Also, hello cae5er, welcome aboard

[Techno]

Welcome from me too, Cae5ar.
Shame on us for not doing that before ! 
Cheers - Phil