25 pdrs and smoke

[richafricanus]

Curious as to what the significance is of off-table 25 pndrs in British lists having the Smoke special ability?  Do they still need to buy smoke assets?  How are the benefited compared to guns that don't have this ability?

thanks, Richard

[richafricanus]

Hi guys, any responses to my query?  Seems to have been lost in the smoke. 

[Big Insect]

Yes
They need to buy Smoke assets

[richafricanus]

thanks - but then what is the reason for calling out "Smoke" under the Abilities column?

[Big Insect]

thanks - but then what is the reason for calling out "Smoke" under the Abilities column?

To indicate that they did fire Smoke and so you can buy if you want to.
Guns which don't have Smoke in the Abilities column (or Illumination etc.) cannot buy those types of ammo.

[Amra]

Yikes ! I have missed this entirely, so to fire smoke you need both purchased smoke assets and off table artillery marked with "smoke"

[Big Insect]

Yikes ! I have missed this entirely, so to fire smoke you need both purchased smoke assets and off table artillery marked with "smoke"

Yes - or on-table Artillery marked as being able to fire Smoke (& purchase Smoke ammo for them).
There are a couple of threads on the matter of Assets (ammunition) on the forum.
Cheers
Mark

[Amra]

But, the top of p49 says "all off-table artillery units...may fire smoke" , no mention of the need for a special ability

So , for example,  the Finns can purchase smoke as an asset but can't use it ?

 Is there any where in the rules where this is clear ?

[Big Insect]

But, the top of p49 says "all off-table artillery units...may fire smoke" , no mention of the need for a special ability

So , for example,  the Finns can purchase smoke as an asset but can't use it ?

 Is there any where in the rules where this is clear ?

As it states on P49, all off-table artillery may fire Smoke, but only if they have Smoke assets that they can purchase and these have been purchased.

NB: there are a number of cross-over threads talking about munitions and asset on the Forum.
The rules as they pertain to Cold War Commander (for example) are a lot more specific and complex than in BKC, to reflect the diversity of the ammunition types available. In CWC every type of gun on or off-table has been given its full compliment of ammo that it usually fired, for both on & off table units. In BKC, this has not been done, partly because only a couple of types of ammo were widely available - HE & Smoke.

So if a list has 1 Smoke asset that 1 Smoke asset can be purchased, and that asset can be allocated either to a single on-table or a single off-table gun (with the obvious caveat that on-table AA guns and usually AT guns don't fire Smoke) or as part of a preliminary bombardment. Once it is fired, it is lost.

Generally, the over use of Smoke was a real problem with earlier versions of BKC (& CWC) particularly in 'pick-up' games. It ruins the game for one side or the other and generally was not the decisive factor in historical battles that many players think it should be. BKCIV has therefore reduced its availability to better reflect its use in the game - this is primarily a game-play mechanism.
If you are playing a historical reenactment of a particular battle, using OOBs, then obviously you can apply Smoke ammunition as you see appropriate.

The intention with BKC was always to try and keep things simple anyway. There are probably off-table gun types that were never issued with Smoke ammo, or so little as to make their use ineffective, but the way the off-table guns work in BKC is that they are generally grouped into broad categories (so the fact that a 60mm gun had some but a 70mm didn't is ignored as both are categorized as 'Light Guns'.

Hope that clears things up.
Cheers
Mark

[Big Insect]

Bottom of P75 talks about buying Assets.
Cheers
Mark

[Amra]

Thanks Mark ,
I get restricting smoke for gaming purposes but you haven't addressed why the clear rule on p 49 is subordinate to a special ability ( and how anyone is supposed to know that) , also what happens in the case of lists that have smoke assets but no way to deliver it

[Big Insect]

Thanks Mark ,
I get restricting smoke for gaming purposes but you haven't addressed why the clear rule on p 49 is subordinate to a special ability ( and how anyone is supposed to know that) , also what happens in the case of lists that have smoke assets but no way to deliver it

Is there a list which has Smoke assets and no way to deliver it?
P49 is not subordinate to the lists - I have just clarified that. If there is/was any confusion it is between BKC & CWC.

[Amra]

Almost all the army lists have a capacity for purchasing smoke assets , but nothing with the "smoke" special ability

This is fine if you just read p49 "all off-table artillery units..may fire smoke.."

But you're saying the "Special Ability " cancels that , so how do the Americans in NW Europe, all the Italian armies and many more use the smoke assets in their lists ?

[fred.]

To indicate that they did fire Smoke and so you can buy if you want to.
Guns which don't have Smoke in the Abilities column (or Illumination etc.) cannot buy those types of ammo.

This is a huge change in typical understanding.


I've just had a re-read.

Smoke seems to refer to 3 different things
1) AFV smoke (p15) which is referenced by the Smoke special rule and is localised smoke mortars or other mechanisms (I think the Russians used fuel on hot exhausts) producing a 1 unit smoke marker on the friendly unit.

2) Smoke special rule - which seems to refer to direct fired Smoke placing a 1 unit smoke marker on an enemy unit. This seems quite rare on the lists. No idea if or how this interacts with Smoke assets.

3) Smoke Asset fired by off table artillery filling a barrage template. This is commonly available on lists - and I didn't think the Smoke special rule was needed for this.

For Off-table support the only units I am currently seeing with Smoke listed are British ones (edit and Neblewerfers). Despite virtually all lists having Smoke Assets available.

[Big Insect]

This is a huge change in typical understanding.


I've just had a re-read.

Smoke seems to refer to 3 different things
1) AFV smoke (p15) which is referenced by the Smoke special rule and is localised smoke mortars or other mechanisms (I think the Russians used fuel on hot exhausts) producing a 1 unit smoke marker on the friendly unit.

2) Smoke special rule - which seems to refer to direct fired Smoke placing a 1 unit smoke marker on an enemy unit. This seems quite rare on the lists. No idea if or how this interacts with Smoke assets.

3) Smoke Asset fired by off table artillery filling a barrage template. This is commonly available on lists - and I didn't think the Smoke special rule was needed for this.

For Off-table support the only units I am currently seeing with Smoke listed are British ones (edit and Neblewerfers). Despite virtually all lists having Smoke Assets available.

P49 is clear and over rides all other rules - any off table artillery can fire smoke.

But you must have Smoke assets available & purchased to be able to fire Smoke.

AFV generated smoke - eg. Smoke dispensers or fuel injected into engine systems was rare but is available to all MBTs specifically.

Smoke ammo rounds were available to AFVs/MBTs primarily and you don't need to purchase these, but they do need to be indicated in the Notes column.

On-table smoke for Artillery must be purchased and is limited.

None of these are a big change from BKVII. They are possible a clarification, but all are certainly the way I have played it for years.

Cheers
Mark