Rules Q&A

Started by Chieftain, 01 February 2015, 10:13:01 PM

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Kiwidave

Direct charge bonus:

In the picture below, Blue moved first. The Ogres and Knights both had a Direct Charge on the Archers-at-Arms unit. The Red Knights then had a Direct Charge against the Blue Knights.

Question:
Do the Blue Knights get the Direct Charge bonus against the Red Knights, as they will have to fight them, as they the unit most immediate to their front? I argued they wouldn't as they charged the Archers, but we ended up allowing it to keep the game following. I can't remember if the Red Knights were in the charge arc of the Blue Knights at the beginning of the turn or not.


Lord Speedy of Leighton

Pretty sure it breaks down to a 1 on 1 fight!
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Nosher

Agree with mad l. The unit fights the enemy unit most of its front is adjacent to. At least that's what I thought I have read.....
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Chieftain

Hi Kiwidave,

Thanks for the question.  Actually i'm surprised this hasn't been asked before as its something that crops up regularly in my games.

OK, so the ogres/archers are clear.
Red knights vs archers, also clear.

The confusion arises from the blue knights charging the red knights and 'taking them away' from fighting the archers.  This is of course a sound tactic, as those archers were in trouble!   :D

You make the following interesting point, 'I can't remember if the Red Knights were in the charge arc of the Blue Knights at the beginning of the turn or not.'

That doesn't actually matter.

Let's take a look at the wording (my emphasis in bold).

'A melee charge counts as a direct charge if at the beginning of its charge move any part of the enemy target unit is directly to the charging unit's front.'

In your example, the red knights charge the archers (enemy target unit) directly to their front so they fight with the direct charge bonus.

The blue knights charge the red knights (enemy target unit) directly to their front so they fight with the direct charge bonus.

Even though during the melee pair-ups the red knights are now fighting a different unit (blue knights rather than archers) they still get their direct charge bonus.  The target unit's position (in this case the archers) determines this bonus, which then applies irrespective of which unit the chargers end up fighting.

Maybe think of it like this - the red knights went charging in against the archers, their blood up and lances quivering, only to find  the blue knights moving in to meet them, so they redirect to take on the enemy knights instead.  In terms of the rules, its designed so that you get your bonuses, even when the swirling melee changes your target.  It also keeps things neat and simple.  
Unit made a direct charge?  Its gets the bonus.  Simple.   :)

In most cases, I suspect it will be easy to determine whether or not a unit gets the bonus.  Of course you'll have your own ways to amicably resolve disputes but I'd suggest in marginal cases, allowing attacks to occur or bonuses to apply is a good choice.

Hopefully that helps?

Cheers
Chieftain
Official Guru of our Warband rules!

Roxxy

Quote from: Chieftain on 27 October 2015, 12:54:11 PM
Hi Kiwidave,

Thanks for the question.  Actually i'm surprised this hasn't been asked before as its something that crops up regularly in my games.

OK, so the ogres/archers are clear.
Red knights vs archers, also clear.

The confusion arises from the blue knights charging the red knights and 'taking them away' from fighting the archers.  This is of course a sound tactic, as those archers were in trouble!   :D

You make the following interesting point, 'I can't remember if the Red Knights were in the charge arc of the Blue Knights at the beginning of the turn or not.'

That doesn't actually matter.

Let's take a look at the wording (my emphasis in bold).

'A melee charge counts as a direct charge if at the beginning of its charge move any part of the enemy target unit is directly to the charging unit's front.'

In your example, the red knights charge the archers (enemy target unit) directly to their front so they fight with the direct charge bonus.

The blue knights charge the red knights (enemy target unit) directly to their front so they fight with the direct charge bonus.

Even though during the melee pair-ups the red knights are now fighting a different unit (blue knights rather than archers) they still get their direct charge bonus.  The target unit's position (in this case the archers) determines this bonus, which then applies irrespective of which unit the chargers end up fighting.

Maybe think of it like this - the red knights went charging in against the archers, their blood up and lances quivering, only to find  the blue knights moving in to meet them, so they redirect to take on the enemy knights instead.  In terms of the rules, its designed so that you get your bonuses, even when the swirling melee changes your target.  It also keeps things neat and simple.  
Unit made a direct charge?  Its gets the bonus.  Simple.   :)

In most cases, I suspect it will be easy to determine whether or not a unit gets the bonus.  Of course you'll have your own ways to amicably resolve disputes but I'd suggest in marginal cases, allowing attacks to occur or bonuses to apply is a good choice.

Hopefully that helps?

Cheers
Chieftain

As I thought Dave It is logical, KISS. Great game last night, com on the alliance ;)

Kiwidave

Thanks Chieftain :)

As it turned out, my Red Knights (Dragon Men) saw off the Blue Knights (Taurians), and went on to win the game :)

KD

Kiwidave

Another game - more questions!

1) When a Formed unit is contacted on the flank or rear, when does the turn to face the enemy occur? In the movement phase or the melee phase? We decided during the game that it was just prior to conducting the melee resolution, but weren't sure. If it's in the movement phase, this will give missile units a chance to shoot their attackers.

2) Do Formed units retain Shieldwall if they turn to face an attacker? We decided yes they did, as it isn't a motivated movement.

3) If a Formed unit has opponents to flank and front, and the frontal opponent falls back, can/does the Formed unit turn to face the flanking unit or are they stuck being flanked? We decided that they could.

4) Picture round:


Which of the above options are correct? Unit A was charged by Unit B. We went with Option B to keep the game moving, but there was some debate as to whether this was correct or not.

Chieftain

Hi Kiwidave,

Some excellent questions sir!   :D

Quote1) When a Formed unit is contacted on the flank or rear, when does the turn to face the enemy occur? In the movement phase or the melee phase? We decided during the game that it was just prior to conducting the melee resolution, but weren't sure. If it's in the movement phase, this will give missile units a chance to shoot their attackers.

The Formed special ability wording is indeed unclear on the sequencing.
Formed units turn to face 'before any melee is resolved'.  They do this in the melee phase after spells but before the melee resolution begins (between 5.2 and 5.3 in the turn sequence).
I'll add this clarification to the errata section.

Quote2) Do Formed units retain Shieldwall if they turn to face an attacker? We decided yes they did, as it isn't a motivated movement.

Yes they keep this as the formed turn is not a motivated move.  This is addressed in the errata for shieldwall.

Quote3) If a Formed unit has opponents to flank and front, and the frontal opponent falls back, can/does the Formed unit turn to face the flanking unit or are they stuck being flanked? We decided that they could.

The formed unit will if it meets the requirements for this free turn next combat round.

The picture round...i'm not sure what you mean with it.  Correct in what way?
Official Guru of our Warband rules!

Kiwidave

What I mean is this:

At the start of the melee phase, Unit B is in the rear of Unit A as a result of a charge move. Can Unit A (being a Formed unit) perform option B (i.e. end up in front edge to front edge contact with Unit B ), or should it be more like option A (just a 180 degree turn), or option C (a 180 degree turn then align to the flank of Unit B ).

Or are all three options equally valid?

Chieftain

Ah, got you.   :)

The formed unit turn to face the rear contact most to full edge and corner contact if able (or otherwise gets as close to that as possible).

If no other units intervene, then option B is the best option.  The intention is for the formed unit to remove the flank advantage, not to move towards creating its own counter advantage.
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Kiwidave

Righto. As a follow-on to that, are there any movement distance limitations, or can Unit A move as much as necessary to get the full edge-to-edge contact?

Chieftain

It moves the minimum necessary to adjust the contact, and only if possible within the conditions of the Formed 'turn to flank' move.

:)
Official Guru of our Warband rules!

Kiwidave


stenicplus

Just another quick one on terrain and hills in particular.

My understanding is that to count as in the terrain you must have over half the base in it.

That would suggest that I could have a front left corner off the hill and on the flat, but count as entirely on the hill as 80% of the stand is on the hill.

If an enemy stand charges said corner of my base, does my base get uphill as it is on the hill (ie more than half on the hill) and therefore all of it is further uphill of the enemy on the flat?

Thanks,

Steve

Chieftain

Quote from: stenicplus on 03 February 2016, 11:00:43 PM
Just another quick one on terrain and hills in particular.

My understanding is that to count as in the terrain you must have over half the base in it.

That would suggest that I could have a front left corner off the hill and on the flat, but count as entirely on the hill as 80% of the stand is on the hill.

If an enemy stand charges said corner of my base, does my base get uphill as it is on the hill (ie more than half on the hill) and therefore all of it is further uphill of the enemy on the flat?

Thanks,

Steve

Hi Steve.  Yes, the uphill bonus applies for precisely the reasons you state.

Cheers
Chieftain
Official Guru of our Warband rules!