Quote from: kustenjaeger on 19 November 2013, 12:31:43 PM
Greetings

I think it's a false dichotomy.  

Edward is absolutely right. I wouldn't collect and paint (or get painted!) the model soldiers if I didn't want to game with them.  I probably wouldn't be as devoted to the historical research on tactics, uniforms, battlefields etc, if I didn't have the miniatures  hobby.  It is not a pair of separate or parallel hobbies, it is one entirely absorbing whole.  All the joy and intellectual excitement and stimulus I gain from walking battlefields and researching campaigns would be as nothing without this hobby.


Mollinary

Errr....a collector, I suppose but possibly at sometime a few solo campaigns. However, for me, it's the research and painting then into the box. Then onto the next, it's the zen of painting that I enjoy,I find that the preparation and painting has a quality of its own, whether I'm a good painter or not, is not relevant, as the figures are for me but I do my best to get them as top notch as possible. Each to his own

I agree also. For me, painting is a form of relaxation that furthers my interest in military history and allows me to play bigger and better games. I agree totally that any set of rules must favour the tactics that historically prevailed. I am not interested in looking for loopholes that will bring success at any price. For me, collecting and gaming are two aspects of the same process.

Well, having read that lot (and coming down in paulr's camp) I think I can say that the article in WS&S is rowlocks!

Most of the gamers I know are also collectors.

The collectors are rarely gamers.

Or to put it another way, if the games are important to you then the figures tend to be too but if the figures are the focus of your attention then gaming is often an irrelevance.

Lets face it if you're a military gamer but not into tiny soldiers then board or computer games are so much easier than tabletop ones!

Those who post here seem to be mainly gamers so maybe we're not a representative sample?

My two ha'porth.

I consider myself a gamer who never quite gets things together... I can't be a collector if it requires research and actually painting figures...

But I find the question highly relevant for a couple of Kickstart campaigns I've been watching lately (Mars Attacks! and Aliens Vs. Predator, both 28mm minis games), where it's increasingly obvious that most of the backers are only in it for the cool toys. Indeed, the AvP crows are treating the MA! project with scorn because their figures will be better detailed resin instead of cheap plastic. At about 3 times the price... 

QuoteA gamer however is more focused on the rules mechanisms and how they can be used to best advantage, and is not particularly interested in how good the playing pieces look.

I think is more a definition of a games (rules) lawyer than areal gamer. I remember these types from my school wargmes club years and years ago where one guy would turn up with 1 PzIV, 6 Tiger I and 4 or 6 Tamiya Tiger II because the rules said these tanks existed in 1944 and they could blast the sh** out of our T/34s before we got in range. Since then I've shied away from clubs, which hasn't actually been too difficult as there are none near where I live  

As I am therefore a solo gamer (mainly) I tend to be more of a collector, since I have to build up two armies (at least ) for each area of interest. Even though my painting skills are average at best, the underlying intention is to put a decent looking, historically accurate (as far as I can tell) force on the table for a scrap that I, and possibly one of our cats, will find entertaining. So I'm both, but probably more of a collector through force of circumsatnce.

Quote from: Malbork on 20 November 2013, 04:16:51 PM
I think is more a definition of a games (rules) lawyer than areal gamer. I remember these types from my school wargmes club years and years ago where one guy would turn up with 1 PzIV, 6 Tiger I and 4 or 6 Tamiya Tiger II because the rules said these tanks existed in 1944 and they could blast the sh** out of our T/34s before we got in range. Since then I've shied away from clubs, which hasn't actually been too difficult as there are none near where I live  

That sounds like the guy who wouldn't fit in our gaming group   

For WW2 we have about 4 tigers and 3 tiger II's in our combined collections (there are two of us who have a german army, and we sometimes supplement each others forces to make scenarios work), and we have only used 1 tiger, and that in 2 games. For the rest we use pz IV, marder, stugs etc..

Gives for more interesting games actually, no relying on superior armour.

Quote from: petercooman on 20 November 2013, 07:01:17 PM

Gives for more interesting games actually, no relying on superior armour.

Agree completely.  If I find a "killer combination" I stop using it or, and this is really fun, let my opponent use it and try to beat it.

It ain't the winning...it's how you win

Actually the most fun games we played were our defense games. We put togheter the attacking army about a week before, and then each of the players may complete a list for the defender. The one who has the lowest points on his list (using the bkcII points system)  gets to try and stop the attacker 

Nice

QuoteFor WW2 we have about 4 tigers and 3 tiger II's in our combined collections (there are two of us who have a german army, and we sometimes supplement each others forces to make scenarios work), and we have only used 1 tiger, and that in 2 games. For the rest we use pz IV, marder, stugs etc..

Same as me Peter. My German force is 3 Stug III and 5 Pz IV, which I've never used all together.

I'm now contemplating buying a Tiger I and a Tiger II for use with Battlegroup Fall of the Reich rules where most of the forces are pretty much ad hoc and the odd 'big beast' is acceptable and doesn't seem to upset the balance (at least from from a read through). I'm looking for a game which is fun and a reasonable simulation, rather than tryign to build up an unbeatable force.

A tiger or two can be great if you use it as an objective though! Like kelly's heroes, move in the town and kill the tigers!

During the Battle of the Bulge, Joachim Piper sent all his Tiger IIs to the rear of the column because he was so disgusted with their performance. That may give you some idea of how good they actually were.

From about the late 90s until this year I would probably call myself a collector more than a gamer. During that time I may have played one or two games a year and mostly at conventions where I ran games. So actually some years I didn't game other than setting up games for others to play. I collected many armies in different periods during that time all with the intent of actually playing some day.

This year I would consider myself a gamer as I have probably actually played more games this year than the previous ten combined. I have still amassed more figures this year but with the intent of playing not collecting.