Serious question for Sebigboss

Started by Last Hussar, 02 October 2013, 07:32:28 PM

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barbarian

I think colonialism is the worst thing that happened to humanity.
You're way of seeing it is really really a whit-european consideration.

Modern capitalism just exists because WE (our ancestors ) made triangular commerce : Stealing human beings in Africa, to send them work and steal resources (mainly gold and silver, but wood too...) in south America, back to square one, where the money generated went in Dutch banks. Those banks permitted the industrial revolution in United Kingdoms, making loans to the british just-born industry.

I find this offensive :
"It's unfortunate that the native peoples didn't grasp this gift with both hands or had it snatched away from them by their own leaders."
You cannot build a country which main resources are drained away to a colonialist power.

For me, colonialism have set the actual situation, and all European power should be ashamed and grateful toward their former colonies.

(BTW I'm french, my dad was born in Madagascar from a French colon, and my Mom's mom was a colon in Morocco too, so I really know the point of view of my grand-parents about "we brought them civilisation and look what they have done about it..." : I find it disgusting.)

To go back to the first thread, I think that Humans have done awful things from the beginning, and as truly awful the Nazis were, I think there was and always will be atrocities in our history : I don't trust human nature.


You may be right about not speaking about politics... ;)
2015 Painting Competition - Winner!
2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Sandinista

"The Nazis were voted into power by the German people...several times"

Absolute bollocks, they never won power through an election Hitler gained power in January 1933 when asked to form a government by Hindenburg, after several other coalition attempts had failed. He then suppressed his opponents and seized total power.

The Nazi's largest share of vote was in July 32 was 37% up fro 18% in 1930. In the November 1933 elections their share of vote had fallen to 33%, that was the last free election. The March 33 elections after massive suppression of opposition parties post Reichstag fire they still failed to win a majority - 43%.

But as the Daily Mail has shown this week why bother with the truth if it doesn't match your blinkered world view

sebigboss79

Quote from: Last Hussar on 02 October 2013, 07:32:28 PM
Straight up- this is a touchy subject.  I think (hope) Sebigboss will take it in the spirit in which it is meant, which is in friendship.

80 years ago your country had a period of, shall we say, collective lunacy.  There is now a whole hobby dedicated to making entertainment out of the consequences, and discussion about the technical points.  Does this ever feel a bit weird?

Interestingly there was a major debate when the first such pieces surfaced. A former member of the Council of Jews in Germany spoke on the matter.

For quite a while he pondered the numerous achievements through the centuries that are attached with "being german". Then he shortly expressed his sadness that Germany and Germans are reduced to 12 years of collective idiocy. He (like me) argues also that support for the Führer was 44. something % at best, leaving over 50 % actually against him. (My granddad joined the airforce as they were the only ones to employ him as a electrician and he became a radio operator. By an administrative mistake he was sent on holiday instead of joining his unit in Stalingrad!)

The Jewish Gentleman then said: ... so concerning the ridiculing of Hitler and the Nazis you are asking if you may do that? I say no, you HAVE TO.



As it has been mentioned before many nations have their bad spots, my Social Science teacher keeps arguing the empire killed more people annualy than Adolf in 12. Churchill himself was quite fond of the idea to nervegas Rebels in the middle east. Yet we call Churchill a hero and Adolf a bastard (or worse). I think we need to rethink ourselves on these matters. No one is free from guilt but some people realise it sooner than others.

I would never consider your question in any other manner Hussar. In fact I am the first to chime in on a good German bashing because I realised some of our traits are indeed puzzling others - to say the least.

Duke Speedy of Leighton

You may refer to me as: Your Grace, Duke Speedy of Leighton.
2016 Pendraken Painting Competion Participation Prize  (Lucky Dip Catagory) Winner

sebigboss79

Another Jewish Gentleman left Germany in the 60s. When my local football club signed two Jewish players some jerks went to the training grounds to utter their anti-semitic opinion. Apparently they were displeased witht he teams performance the day before (in which both players did not participate).

Besides a media outcry both players made statements concerning a few idiots should not get a stage and I had a discussion with said Jewish Gent. He would like to encourage the young generation of Germns to be proud of their country.  We agreed these things were bad and we must never forget them but 'inheriting the guilt' of our forefathers and collective punishment are more than counter-productive.

As I said before: Everyone has some bad spots here and there. I have no prejudice against any race, nationality, religion, gender and whatnot. But i certainly reserve the right to call an idiot an idiot. I am not talking about everyday stupidity but about behavioural patterns. Hard to pinpint it but I guess everyone knows what I mean.

And being an idiot is, to my knowledge, not associated with any particular religion, gender, race, colour or whatnot.

fsn

To Steeleye. I think you and I are broadly in agreement, though you are better informed about the Boers than I. I fell out with them when the killed Raffles.

To Barbarian: I think you have also encapsulated my thoughts.I assume when your grand-parents said "we brought them civilisation and look what they have done about it..." they were being genuine. They saw people who were without the benefits of trains, modern medicine, Christianity and the benevolent rule by a benevolent European power, so popped in to civilise them. If that happened to increase the wealth of the European power, then that's fine. The lovely European power saw these wild children and settled upon them a paternal regime, and were quite surprised when the poor people objected. Nowadays the view of empire is that it is an evil thing. The view in the C19 was quite different. 
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
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Fenton

Quote from: sebigboss79 on 04 October 2013, 02:29:28 PM
Another Jewish Gentleman left Germany in the 60s. When my local football club signed two Jewish players some jerks went to the training grounds to utter their anti-semitic opinion. Apparently they were displeased witht he teams performance the day before (in which both players did not participate).


things like that happened in the UK as well, when Chelsea signed Paul Canoville in the early 80's he was Chelsea's first non white player...some of the Chelsea supporters refused to acknowledge any goals he scored and heaped a lot of racist abuse on him. The supporters went as far to publish their own league tables which showed the result of the game without any goals scored by Canoville. So if Chelsea drew 1-1 and Canoville scored the Chelsea goal then the supporters regarded this as a 1-0 defeat

There will always be idiots no matter what country or whatever the era of history
If I were creating Pendraken I wouldn't mess about with Romans and  Mongols  I would have started with Centurions , eight o'clock, Day One!

Ace of Spades

It's good to see we all agree on the basic principles of this discussion which I think means the political thorn is now officially removed; huzzah! :D

A point on the Boer War subject I would like to make though (historical points of view/facts can still safely be discussed I guess?) is that I really don't believe the Boers had little concept of hygiëne and sanitation. What is absolutely sure is that a lot of them lived pretty well isolated (the so-called 'Takhaar' Boers) and therefore their resistance to humanly transferred diseases was well below average. The fact that this contributed to countless deaths when forced together in a relatively small space with minimal hygiene is a logical consequence. I for one would never blame the British military for not recognizing this since the mere existence of bacteria was hardly recognized by the time.

Barbarians observations on European economics seem to be cutting some corners in my opinion; slavery (as much as we reject it today) was a 'normal' trade during the 17th and especially the 18th century and benefitted indeed mainly the European countries. Let's not forget though that under the Roman empire slavery was also common practice as well as it has been throughout history and all over the world and let's face it; in different horrible forms still is! The gold and silver taken from South America was used by Spain to finance its religious wars throughout Europe; still the Spanish court kept going bankrupt time and time again. So were did this money go? Certainly not to the Dutch banks; the Dutch were doing their utmost to fight the Spanish... Spanish money was spent throughout Europe; raising troops (though usually the colonels belonged to the few who usually got paid) buying armament and securing political back-up in its vazal states. In the end; Spanish gold was squandered all over Europe both in payments and loot to the other party. Dutch banks were filled with money made all over the world; large amounts were actually earned within Europe transferring wood and grain from the Baltic and Russia partly from buying (yes, these products were bought from the indigenous people throughout the 17th and first half of the 18th century) cocoa, tea and spices all over the world and selling them throughout Europe. The Dutch were in no position to really colonize any lands until the late 18th century (and lost most pretty quickly to the British who 'guarded' them for us during the occupation of the Netherlands under Napoleon) and only opened trade- and resupplying posts along foreign coasts. British gold as far as I know was pretty well gone by the end of the Napoleonic wars from paying Russia, Prussia and Austria to keep them in the fight against Napoleon. The Industrial Revolution was payed for by entrepreneurs who made their own money (indeed not always in the most ethical ways, then again... what has changed?).

Please; feel free to comment; if anybody wants to correct these points I am open to discussion but it might be wise to open a new topic then?

As to the Germans; they've always been good neighbours to us; except for that one short period when they came in uninvited ;)

Cheers,
Rob
2014 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

sebigboss79

Quote from: Ace of Spades on 04 October 2013, 05:49:09 PM

As to the Germans; they've always been good neighbours to us; except for that one short period when they came in uninvited ;)


Polish? We came more often to France and only once to Poland. Took a terrible beating in the second half....

One of my friends here is Polish as well (Jarek) and we agreed the Polish and the Germans make the best beer and sausages and the Germans just came over because we were jealous of that and the sexy women  =P~

Jarek then says this made the Polish men upset and they kicked us out.....  ;D

Interesting statistics: If a German male marries a non German wife she is Polish in almost 70 % of the cases...Strangely my Ex IS Polish....  :P

OldenBUA

Quote from: sebigboss79 on 04 October 2013, 10:05:19 PM
Polish? We came more often to France and only once to Poland. Took a terrible beating in the second half....

This time on the other side, SBB, it's the Dutch we're talking about. And yes, also a one time event. (Disregarding the annual beach invasion, ofcourse).
Water is indeed the essential ingredient of life, because without water you can't make coffee!

Aander lu bin óók lu.

Ace of Spades

Correct, aus Holland on this side ;)
The Germans stayed clear of our borders until 1940 when they realised that entering France through a gap the width of Belgium just wasn't good enough :-\
Up to that moment and since no roblems whatsoever (okay, the Bishop of Munsters behaviour in the late 18th century wasn't too polite, but that wasn't German politics...)!

Cheers,
Rob
2014 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Ace of Spades

Quote from: OldenBUA on 05 October 2013, 07:31:29 AM
(Disregarding the annual beach invasion, ofcourse).

Which by the way is a very awkward affair since it's the only beachinvasion I know of that is conducted from inland! :o

Cheers,
Rob
2014 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

sebigboss79

Apologies my brother.

I do have Dutch friends as well. He is working @ another Tabletop Company and his version of nevermind the nationality is: You can point anything at me, except the MG42.

Well there is a German party song that gives a very good reason for this beachinvasion :P Both are round shaped and particularly large in Dutchieland :P


Last Hussar

And ever since 6 June 1944 the Germans have learned to have their towels on the beaches before 6am?
I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little."
Franklin D. Roosevelt

GNU PTerry

Ace of Spades

Hahaha! All true ;D The round objects you refer to defenitely must be a can of beer and a joint, correct? ;) Or are they more 'all around round' like the items I regularly see in the 'Totty' sections around here? :D
I have a lot of German friends in the re-enactment scene (mainly ACW) and those that I know that do re-enact WW-2 all do Yanks.
The absolutely best WW-2 re-enactment I ever did in all the years was the re-enactment of the 'liberation/occupation' of Eichenkofen, Bavaria about ten years ago or so. Weird to do something like that in Germany for the first time but everybody had one hell of a time!
We were driving around through the countryside in our recce-jeep with machineguns and everything on it and it happened to be during a football match of the World Championship that was being held that year. Germany was playing that afternoon and there was absolutely nobody on the Streets; very eerie... the only thing we missed were the white flags hanging from the houses. As I said; one of the best re-enactments ever!
The stories we heard there were so good since we always only heard the story of the liberation from Dutch and allied folks... it was good to experience the other side for a change.

Cheers,
Rob
2014 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

sebigboss79

Liberation also came for us.

You should get a book "Der Zweite Weltkrieg" by a Polish guy Janusz P-something.

I know my grandma was one of the lucky ones, having some land in her back yard to grow anything including potatoes.
With withdrawing Germans plundered half the potatoes, the "victorious French" threw everything including jam glasses around and what was left unspoiled helped her through the rationing.

I have seen pictures of German children begging Allied soldiers for food and at that time I wa snot much older than them. Years later -when life has not been as good to em as today- I learned how real hunger feels like.

Concerning the round objects you are correct with your assumption of said thread. Both these and tomatoes are said to be bigger in your country but when offered said objects and a beer any German would have a hard time choosing.....

@Last Hussar: That may be true but then again I blame the English in particular taking the best spots since June 6th 1944. Bloody tourists....

FierceKitty

I find the idea of the Boar War interesting. Should be a range to bring in the bacon for the fantasy enthusiasts.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

OldenBUA

Quote from: FierceKitty on 11 October 2013, 08:59:36 AM
I find the idea of the Boar War interesting. Should be a range to bring in the bacon for the fantasy enthusiasts.

They're already here (though in the wrong scale).



The Semi-Colonials are drawn from a variety of species. The Boars are based on the European wild boar, with a culture from the Boers (Dutch colonists in South Africa) late 1800's.

http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=gcc17-2165

Water is indeed the essential ingredient of life, because without water you can't make coffee!

Aander lu bin óók lu.

fsn

I thought I was a bit weird: but first Roman teddy bears and now Boar-Boers!  :o

Whatever next? GW producing reasonably priced figures?
Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Techno

Are you taking the wrong pills again fsn ? ;) :P
Cheers - Phil