I find this 'big society' a bit odd.  As it stands an estimated 11,000,000 people (1 in 6) in the UK regularly volunteer, keeping all sorts of social and community projects going, so is Dave saying we need MORE?

British people are innately socialist (small 's') in any case, so this kind of social responsibility is not surprising to me (i've always felt the Socialist principle 'from each according to ability, to each according to need' made perfect sense), but i'm not sure what the 'Big Society' adds to that...other than cutting more services and expecting local people to pick up the slack?

And another thing that i find a bit odd about David Clegg's rhetoric is this idea of the 'broken society'.  I genuinely think its not society that's broken but government and governance.  We have govenrment departments that should join up their services, but which instead go to war with each other over budgets, responsibilities, kudos, etc.

Health Dept fails to properly educate and control teenagers on family planning.
Teen get pregnant and brings a kid into an unstable home.  Social Services leave a kid in the destructive home life.
Dept of Education fails the disturbed kid and churns out and illiterate citizen with no choice but a life of crime.
Home Office puts that kid in jail where he learns more criminal expertise and develops a drug habit.
Kid comes out with an 80% chance of reoffending, and spends the next 10 years in and out of jail.
Kid finally overdoses and ends up in the NHS with no capacity to treat him.
On it goes.

At EVERY point, the government fails, because it doesn't act in the public interest...



Now of course personal responsibility has to come into it, but its mach easier to take that responsibility if from birth you are in a well governed social environment that values you and brings you up.

At least LAbour made a bit of a stab at doing it (although the Facist New Labour cadre, tied to their corporate oligarchy masters screwed it up...

The Tories don't seem to even bother with the pretense...

Hehe...

However, i agree Leon, it hasn't really hit me yet.  I'm in the private sector so i think the knock on effects still have to work through to us, but i have a lot of friends in the public sector and they are really, really worried...

What i don't understand is;

WHY are these cuts neccessary?  The deficit is mangeable.  Cutting in by perhaps £40 billion per year as Labour had planned seemed a sensible staged approach to reduce the borrowing.  The Tories seem intent on a slash and burn irrespective of consequence.

What i also don't understand is why the banking sector that CAUSED this crisis gets bailed out to the tune of £trillions of PUBLIC money allowing them to continue to pay £multi-million bonuses, yet teachers, nurses, soldiers, and street cleaners get thrown onto the scrap heap?

Sometimes i wonder if i'm from another planet where black is white...   

The whole system winds me up as well, but I tend to put more blame on people.  There are certain groups who I have no sympathy for, and think make a good case for sterilisation at birth.  

I'm sick of the number of children being born into poverty line families, to parents who either don't want to care for, or are unable to care for them.  These kids are then dragged up in these dysfunctional families, and are being led straight into similar lives.  And how many of the end of being diagnosed with ADHD?  Or discipline deficit, as I prefer to call it.  If you check the stats, why is it that more kids from low income households develop ADHD, when their parents are always at home?

Benefit scroungers are the next lot.  People who have no work ethic, and think that somehow society owes them a free ride.  Whether they drop a load of sprogs, or sit at home claiming disability, there needs to be someone who just tells them 'Get a job.'  I used to work for Provident, doing small personal loans for people, and the number of houses I went to, where no-one worked, they lived off benefits, and they were all sat on leather sofa's, watching plasma TV's, smoking 40 a day.  It made me sick.

Also, compensation culture is ruining everything.  Far too many people want an excuse for being clumsy, or want to claim that their human rights have been infringed.  If you've fell down a big hole and broke your ankle, tough.  Watch where you're going next time.  If you're an immigrant who's committed a crime, but don't want to be extradited cos it's a bit rough back home, tough.  Shouldn't have broken the law.



And... relax...!

Quote from: Leon on 21 July 2010, 02:02:51 AM
The whole system winds me up as well, but I tend to put more blame on people.  There are certain groups who I have no sympathy for, and think make a good case for sterilisation at birth.  

I'm sick of the number of children being born into poverty line families, to parents who either don't want to care for, or are unable to care for them.  These kids are then dragged up in these dysfunctional families, and are being led straight into similar lives.  And how many of the end of being diagnosed with ADHD?  Or discipline deficit, as I prefer to call it.  If you check the stats, why is it that more kids from low income households develop ADHD, when their parents are always at home?

Benefit scroungers are the next lot.  People who have no work ethic, and think that somehow society owes them a free ride.  Whether they drop a load of sprogs, or sit at home claiming disability, there needs to be someone who just tells them 'Get a job.'  I used to work for Provident, doing small personal loans for people, and the number of houses I went to, where no-one worked, they lived off benefits, and they were all sat on leather sofa's, watching plasma TV's, smoking 40 a day.  It made me sick.

Also, compensation culture is ruining everything.  Far too many people want an excuse for being clumsy, or want to claim that their human rights have been infringed.  If you've fell down a big hole and broke your ankle, tough.  Watch where you're going next time.  If you're an immigrant who's committed a crime, but don't want to be extradited cos it's a bit rough back home, tough.  Shouldn't have broken the law.



And... relax...!

100% behind this

Quote from: Leon on 21 July 2010, 02:02:51 AM
The whole system winds me up as well, but I tend to put more blame on people.  

Indeed, and as i mentioned, personal responsibility is vital (there's far too much emphasis on 'rights').

However, i think people vs society is a false dichotomy.

People ARE society, and society IS people.

A functioning 'good' society, shaped by effective government that administers in the interest of all (rather than in the narrow interest of the corporate oligarchs) creates the capacity for indivuals to make far better choices that greatly benefit society...and so a circle of improvement would begin...

Utopia perhaps?

Quote from: Luddite on 21 July 2010, 06:09:56 PM
Utopia perhaps?

Are we too far gone though?  It's been going bad for decades, and it's going to take even longer to bring it back.  The government couldn't start forcing people back to work, or overriding compensation culture, because people would then go to European court and appeal against it.  And unfortunately, I think legalised sterilisation would hit a few snags.

One theory I've had for years is this:  Anyone on Jobseekers Allowance must do 5 hours per week of community service style work.  Planting trees, litter picking, painting buildings, working with charities, anything like that.  If they fail to do their 5 hours, then the benefits are frozen until the time is made up.  Now this would require extra funding from the government, to create the admin side of this plan, but you'd have more people in some form of work, these people would have more respect for themselves, and the areas they're from, and if they didn't turn up for the work, you'd save money by stopping their benefits.  Genuine people who want to work would enjoy getting out of the house and doing something worthwhile with their time.  The lazy ones wouldn't have any money, and wouldn't have much choice eventually.

Of course there are a few kinks that would need ironing out, but it would be a much better option than the current system.

There is no money...

Lots of money around unfortunately it is all being bled out in the shape of profits to parasites rather than put back in to make things work

There is still no money, unless you want some of these...