The recent post by Fenton and having spent quite a while helping out at trade stalls at the various Wargames shows got me thinking on what is a realistic price of wargames figures and paraphanalia.

I spent several years helping out a couple of freinds on the Wargames Show circuit and more recently have done the last two Salute's with another freind. I do not have any financial interest in any wargames company, these are just my the observations. I have run my own business in the past and so do have an appreciation of what is involved with running a business.

Of the Traders I have got to know over the years and there are quite a few, very few seem to ba making a huge profit. Yes there are exceptions with some of the very big manaufacturer and dealers. but these can be counted on the fingers on one hand.  Neither do I believe Techno or the other sculptors make a fortune, unless Techno has a new Porshe hidden away

Most of the owners of the established companies have to have a "real" job to pay the bills and put food on the table.  Some will employ one or two people to cast ot pack the orders. Again none of these employees seems to be paid much more than a basic wage- often I suspect its nearer the minimum wage than the UK average.  On freind worked for one well known small wargames company casting and looking after the shop.he left to become a traffic warden as it DOUBLED his salary.  This is not knocking his employer as he seems to be a fair and honest man who paid his staff what the company could afford.

The costs involved in producing our figures and terrain run far beyond the cost of the lead and someone to cast them.  I am sure there are others out there (Leon or Dave) who copuld give a better idea, but the basics:-

Masters
Master mould
Production Moulds
Metal/rein for casting
Acomoodation
Time/staff  cost to actually produce figures and pack them

I believe a basic range of 10mm costs in the region of £1200 to get to the production process ( just masters and moulds) and then you still don't know how many you are going to sell

Show costs-

Van
Fuel
Petrol
Stand ( Salute was about £700 for a 12' stand)
Accomodation.

To attend Salute ( I live an hours drive fronm Excel) I had to get up at 04:30 on Saturday morning.  I got home at 21:00 that evening. after a 16.5 hour day

Ok so thats the basics, on top of that you have the usual set up and running costs of machinery and fuel bills. Then you have to pay your staff.
While none of us like to pay more than we have to for something, this is a specilised product.


Questions:-

1   Are we paying less than the actual value when it comes to buying stuff for our hobby?

2  Do you feel you are paying a fairprice already (Ignore Games Worksop Products)

3  Should the manuafacturers have to work evenings and weekends to bring us the latest range?

4  I know some own thier own business or thay are a family concern, but are we happy with the manufacturers/employees being paid less the the minimum
    wage? ( on paper they may get this but if you look at the hours some work they are probably well below this).

5  Are we willing to pay a little more per casting to give a sensible wage to those in the industry and to make a more stable industry?


PLEASE NOTE :- THIS THREAD IS TO DISCUSS WHAT WE FEEL IS A FAIR PRICE FOR OUR HOBBY.  Please do not ask for justification of prices or use it to
                        complain about any manufacturer 

Well said, Orcs. Someone needed to. We hear so much carping and moaning about prices that a reality check was well overdue. Having now retired after ten years in the retail industry I can assure anyone out there that whatever the profit margins on wargames figures may be I doubt that they come anywhere near what is charged in the real world. For instance, your £5,000 lounge suite probably cost between £1,000 and £1,500 wholesale. You do the arithmetic.

The wargames product may cost pence in materials, but added to the overheads already mentioned how about - debt servicing (if you borrow money to set up you have to pay it back, usually with interest), power and utilities (to drive machinery or just to keep warm), council and water rates (they both want their cut), and marketing (even the smallest companies usually need to advertise)? It all adds up.

The company we all love to hate charges premium prices. It also has a hard-nosed attitude that we detest. But it's also a stockmarket listed company - one of the very few in our hobby. It didn't get there by under-selling itself. Think back over the years as to how many small wargames companies have gone to the wall - dozens, quite literally. Mainly because they failed to operate on a commercial basis.

Finally, how do our prices compare with other established modelling hobbies? Well, model railway locomotive - £100 and upwards; A-Class model racing yacht with radio control - not much change out of £1,000; dolls house with full furnishings, internal lighting and quality dolls - £500 minimum. Gentlemen, I'd say we're getting it cheap.     

Questions:-

1   Are we paying less than the actual value when it comes to buying stuff for our hobby?

2  Do you feel you are paying a fairprice already (Ignore Games Worksop Products)

3  Should the manuafacturers have to work evenings and weekends to bring us the latest range?

4  I know some own thier own business or thay are a family concern, but are we happy with the manufacturers/employees being paid less the the minimum
    wage? ( on paper they may get this but if you look at the hours some work they are probably well below this).

5  Are we willing to pay a little more per casting to give a sensible wage to those in the industry and to make a more stable industry?



Indeed, indeed. Often one neglects it is the overheads (you mentioned some of them). Yet the question how other companies can  run at significantly lower costs persists. One of the answers is the huge shop system and you would be quick to believe it. I counter that with the question how much money comes in additionally by HAVING those retail outlets..... If those were not profitable GW would close them.


Answers:

1. I would hope not. That would mean Leon and Dave are making losses and that would not be good for me in the long run.


2. Depends on the seller. Also depends on what you define as "value". The GW like behaviour aside I do not like Battlefront's system at all so no value for me. Other companies offer me a great value (Pendraken/Mantic...). If directly asked how much I was willing to pay for say 10 figures in 10mm my immediate answer would be up to 3 quid if they are good and I do not need that many. If I need hordes then 2 quid would be my ceiling (apply inflation normally).

3. Who is the manufacturer? May it be inconvenient for the person actually working it is often a neccessity to satisfy business needs. The question if it pays off for them should be asked. Personally I do not mind waiting a day or two for the latest range and lets face it there are many ranges already to suit many tastes....

4. No! Work-Life balance is important. In summary lets just say a happy Leon is a productive Leon and only then we can enjoy our hobby in the long run.

5. Depends on who is the seller. Leon and Dave, definately yes. Mantic? Sure. A few others, thats alright. GW, Battlefront, most certainly NOT! As usual this works both ways back and forth.

I suppose having posed the questions I should at least give my answers

Questions:-

1   Are we paying less than the actual value when it comes to buying stuff for our hobby?

In general believe we are. As Herts has shown with other hobbies. If you look at going to Football, Golf , the Gym they are all more expensive than our hobby 

2  Do you feel you are paying a fairprice already (Ignore Games Worksop Products)

With most manufacturers I think we already have a price that is in the buyers favour. When you add the service of some companies particuarly Pendraken I feel we are being subsidised. -ie  No premium to specify particular figures or requesting an extra MG base or oficer figure

3  Should the manuafacturers have to work evenings and weekends to bring us the latest range?

The manufacturer and his employees should be able to pay the bills with a fairly standard 40 hour week - I appreciate that with your own business you often do far more than this ,but I am talking the ideal here

4  I know some own thier own business or thay are a family concern, but are we happy with the manufacturers/employees being paid less the the minimum
    wage? ( on paper they may get this but if you look at the hours some work they are probably well below this).

Just look at the hours Leon works - I know this is not unusual.  Andy Grubb of Grubby tanks even takes stuff to sort on  family holidays

5  Are we willing to pay a little more per casting to give a sensible wage to those in the industry and to make a more stable industry?

I am as I think Wargaming is a cheap hobby. 

Work out the cost per hour on a £100 army. Thats 25 packs of Pendraken.

I can paint a pack in 3-4 hours             75 hours
Gaming 10 games of 3-4 hours             40 hours

Total of 115 hours so we are already at 86p per hour.  Even if you don't like the painting you are still at £2.50 an hour if you throw the army in the bin after 10 games.  What can you do for entertainment/relaxation for less than £2.50 an hour? (ignore the obvious as this has hiddden costs   )

For some reason I got the Johnny Rotten butter advert "... well it's their choice", but this is a knee jerk ungracious, and not a serious answer.

I think I differentiate between companies in it for the money (e.g. GW, since we're on a bashing session) and companies like Pendraken which one feels (and correct me if I'm wrong here) is run by enthusiasts who happen to make (hopefully) a living out of what they love.

I have a a lot of figures that I plan to buy from Pendraken (though my plan is always adjusted upwards by the new ranges) so I feel it behooves me to ensure that Pendraken remains in business. If that means spending a little more so that the good forge masters can keep going in reasonable mental and physical health, then I feel morally that it's the right thing to do.   

I appreciate the huge number of ranges Pendraken offer, but didn't before this thread realise how much the overheads in setting up a single casting are.

May I just add, Just a Few Orcs, that this is an excellent thread and thank you for it.   

However, I still want my Centurion.

Well, first off, a great topic!

I'm immediately going to say, i choose pendraken for their great prices, i have a fairly modest income (to put it lightly), so i only spend money i get for birthdays, christmass etc..

I have been gaming in 28 mm for more than a decade, but this resulted in taking years to get an army togheter, always buying small bits at a time. Since i started buying from Leon and Dave, i have purchased 5 armies in about the same amount of months 

Their price is great. However, if they feel they can't cope anymore and they up their prices, you won't hear me complain. They would still be reasonable 

I know what it's like to count up at the end of the month and checking if i have anything left to spend. For companies that's the same thing, they count up to see if they break even and make profit.

And that's where the problems lie most of the time. Some companies can break even more easy than others. Pendraken offers (in my humble opinion) premium sculpts. Some companies, not calling them by name, will have the same product but maybe with less detail and quality. Maybe their cost of making it will be much less. Now if the quality is double you could ask for a better price, but by doing this you might stop being competitive.

We can't really guess that bit of info right there. Only the pendraken gents know their sale numbers and profits, and how price increaes/ decreases influence that. So i think it is for them to balance their price to their optimal sale output.

Taking the evil empire example, 15% price rise, 1% sale increase, shows us that it is sometimes better to sell a bit lower and have more sales than sell higher and have less.

As stated this is something pendraken has to 'feel' i guess, so i can't realy say much about it.

Only thing i can say is that i hope they have a great turnout, just like their service!!

Hope this makes sense, always a bit hard to express stuff like this in a foreign language 

Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 29 April 2013, 08:16:31 AM
Neither do I believe Techno or the other sculptors make a fortune, unless Techno has a new Porshe hidden away

No Porshe here Orcs......a 12 year old (?) Ford Fiesta held together by rust for me.
But I really enjoy what I do..and you can't ask for a lot more in life than that.
Cheers - Phil.

Chiming in (once more). Took me only 28 years of my life and almost 10 years of my work life.

Telling my boss to shove it resulted in apreciation and a payrise and since then I only do things I like. So much better for my inner stability.

Call it philosophy or wishful thinking but you should seriously try to arrange your life to what YOU want to. Hate your job - get another one. All that is required -and easier said than done- is taking another perspective.

Quote from: Techno on 29 April 2013, 08:49:03 PM
No Porshe here Orcs......a 12 year old (?) Ford Fiesta held together by rust for me.

It's Leon who has the Porche 

Chaps,

You could MAKE a Porsche  ... turreted King Tiger.

After the Centurion is released, of course.

I guess makers charge what they think the market can stand, only Tesco and their ilk can afford loss leaders.  At the end of the day, it's the customer who decides if the item is worth the price and pays the money.

Quote from: SV52 on 30 April 2013, 08:41:42 AM
I guess makers charge what they think the market can stand, only Tesco and their ilk can afford loss leaders.

Wargames can do loss leaders. For example, you buy a bargain-buy give-away 10mm figure of Napoleon. Thinks, I've got this superb figure of Napoleon. Um... I know, I'll buy a French army to go with it. Sorted.

Quote from: WeeWars on 30 April 2013, 11:19:55 AM
Wargames can do loss leaders. For example, you buy a bargain-buy give-away 10mm figure of Napoleon. Thinks, I've got this superb figure of Napoleon. Um... I know, I'll buy a French army to go with it. Sorted.

"You may very well think so, but I couldn't possibly comment."

Interesting thread, and the short answer is that yes, a lot of products in our industry are artificially low.  There's a variety of reasons for it, but I'll dig out some figures and put together a better response.

Pendraken have an excellently huge range (we'll come to chariot armies later shall we?) and this hugeness is part of the reason I have nailed my standard to the Pendraken mast.

Pithead (if I may be excused for using that word) produce a wider WWII range, but only WWII. There's a difference in philosophy, difference in overheads.

Generalist or specialist?