http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=1150466882

I couldn't help but think this is in poor taste given the death of a parent in Holland helping his kids football club out. My own personal thought is that whilst there are still thugs on the terraces sadly there as many on the pitch these days.

Is this in bad taste? Does it have a place in wargaming circles?

I know a week or so I was recollecting Golden Moments in Bloodbowl where a Star Player gets walloped, but is this just the same thing but real-life and therefore different?

I know I'm an ardent kissball knocker - I did love the game once , but I genuinely wondered what others views were and have a feeling it can be discussed reasonably here?


Leon, if it causes offence or gets out of hand I'm happy for the post to be pulled and apologise in advance.

Why would you want models for football hooligans? 

I didn't see any problem with it myself, but I suppose it comes back to the 'Beyond the Pale' discussion we had on here quite a while ago now (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,70.0.html).  Some folk might see it as wrong, but then you wouldn't buy the figures if that was the case?

If you got a load of police figures, you could turn it into a bit of a zombie game, with the hooligans representing the mindless moronic horde ( ) and the police knocking them out with water cannons... 

Quote from: Kiwidave on 10 December 2012, 07:54:57 PM
Why would you want models for football hooligans? 

I totally agree....What a very strange thing to make models of....Can't decide whether I find it distasteful or just plain weird.
Can't really see how it's got any relevance to wargaming though.
Mind you, it sort of highlights the firm that's made them.....Some sort of attempt at getting them noticed ?
Who knows.

Ah.... Leon's just made a good point !!

Cheers - Phil.

Don't Ainsty do a lots of 70s cult tv stuff - Sweeney etc. I guess they fit into that sort of genre.

And modern magic role play too - John Constantine has  had lots a few run ins with football hooligans in his time

I don't see much wrong with it (except uninspiring sculpts).

I've long thought that civil riots would make for a very interesting 'war'game. 

Usually nobody dies, but it presents interesting tactical options for the police at least.

Why is wargaming actual war where people are butchered OK, but wargaming a football riot where a few people get beaten up not OK?

Quote from: Luddite on 10 December 2012, 10:19:32 PM
I don't see much wrong with it (except uninspiring sculpts).

I've long thought that civil riots would make for a very interesting 'war'game. 

Usually nobody dies, but it presents interesting tactical options for the police at least.

Why is wargaming actual war where people are butchered OK, but wargaming a football riot where a few people get beaten up not OK?

+ to this!

We can play bloodbowl, the most ruthless football game off all, play dark futures filled with war,  apocalyptic wastelands where you butcher fellow survivors for resources, play horrorfests filled with zombies and command the SS divisions that committed so many warcrimes, but the thought of some hoolligans beating each other up is wrong?

Quote from: Luddite on 10 December 2012, 10:19:32 PM
I don't see much wrong with it (except uninspiring sculpts).

I've long thought that civil riots would make for a very interesting 'war'game. 

Usually nobody dies, but it presents interesting tactical options for the police at least.

Why is wargaming actual war where people are butchered OK, but wargaming a football riot where a few people get beaten up not OK?

I think it's probably because it's too close to home. Nobody takes the fantasy stuff too seriously, and those of us who read history know that in reality it was a gruesome business, but it's all at arm's length. However, hooliganism - and not just football hooliganism - is all around us, witness the events in Manchester this weekend.     

Not for me.

For me kissball and its hooliganism is fair game.  As are civil riots and brutal police actions (Orgreave, Battle of the Beanfield (particularly close to me), Battle of Trafalgar Square (i was there), etc.)

I think if we can game war scenarios where people are killed then scenarios where people get roughed up (and occasionally killed, usually by the police) shouldn't be a problem.

Leon referenced the thread i kicked off about this issue and i think its worth a re-read before this...

Quote from: HertsblueI think it's probably because it's too close to home.

...why is 'too close to home' important?

Why is it ok to wargame things that aren't 'too close to home'?

I think the difference is when we war game we fight battles that are between soldiers. Civilians, as everyone knows, get caught up in historical conflicts but no one really games this.

police v hooligans is not war it is a civil action.

But Pony Wars is OK?

Miners strike next with coppers like a roman legion and the miners like ancient brits.Scargill and Thatcher as commanders. Don't know how you'd do the miners banners though?

The point in my oppinion is that moronic violence should not be promoted.

We are talking post-Daniel Nivel and in a situation where those people meet at amateur matches to beat each other up. Sports becoming a side-issue.

If you wanna get violent, join the army or a boxing club and beat up like minded people. Do not mess up sports.

Quote from: sebigboss79 on 11 December 2012, 06:30:22 PM
The point in my oppinion is that moronic violence should not be promoted.

That's the hobby done then...

Every war in history is full of moronic violence.

Quote from: Matt of MunslowI think the difference is when we war game we fight battles that are between soldiers. Civilians, as everyone knows, get caught up in historical conflicts but no one really games this.

Partisans?

Volksturm?

Greek Hoplites?

Saxon Fyrd?

Good points again Luddite...

Cheers - Phil.

Quote from: Luddite on 11 December 2012, 06:40:51 PM

Partisans?

Volksturm?

Greek Hoplites?

Saxon Fyrd?

True, not to mention the vietnam war and afghanistan and all that. We game that too.

You have a house? If you model the ruin of a little farmstead in normandy, is that to close to home? It might at well be your house.

Everyone who plays 'a very british civil war", are they wrong?

My grandmother got shrapnel in her leg after the germans bombed our country. Should i throw my germans in the bin now?

This is just a a case of "to each his own" i think. Some may find it innapropriate, to me it is just another setting.

Agreed Luddite. I shall elaborate.

Indeed violence seldom serves a higher purpose. Yet where does wargaming come from? Actually from the general staff wargaming exercises.

I used the term "moronic" to highlight the distance from the surrounding (football) to the action (hooliganism). Why do you go to football games? Certainly not to get beaten up or beat other people up. See my further reasoning.

And thus I must disagree with the "to each its own".

Petercooman you have made a deliberate decision to game Germans. It is your personal decision whether to game them or discard / not game them  due to personal reasons. Those reasons need no discussion or understanding. Me for example would love to get a 2nd SS Tank and replay Arnheim to let the Brits win. Is my choice tasteless? Maybe so but I would argue that playing a "Hooligan" army would be showing less taste.

Quote from: sebigboss79 on 11 December 2012, 07:22:32 PM
Indeed violence seldom serves a higher purpose.

Actually i disagree with this but that's another debate...

Quote from: sebigboss79Yet where does wargaming come from? Actually from the general staff wargaming exercises.

Why is this relevant?

Presumably the 'general staff' didn't use plastic space marines..yet we still have them.

And i've no doubt that the various forces around the world have 'wargamed'  riot control scenarios...

Quote from: sebigboss79Why do you go to football games?

I don't.  Its a dreadfull, tedious, pointless game played largely by moral degenerates.  Kissball just isn't worth anybody's time.

Quote from: sebigboss79Certainly not to get beaten up or beat other people up. See my further reasoning.

Yet it would appear that thousands if not millions of people around the world go for precisely this reason.  Seems a shame not to have a go at wargaming such an interesting tactical setting.

Quote from: sebigboss79And thus I must disagree with the "to each its own".

OK.  To each his own.   

Quote from: sebigboss79Maybe so but I would argue that playing a "Hooligan" army would be showing less taste.

OK.  Make your argument.   

Quote from: sebigboss79 on 11 December 2012, 07:22:32 PM

And thus I must disagree with the "to each its own".

Petercooman you have made a deliberate decision to game Germans. It is your personal decision whether to game them or discard / not game them  due to personal reasons. Those reasons need no discussion or understanding. Me for example would love to get a 2nd SS Tank and replay Arnheim to let the Brits win. Is my choice tasteless? Maybe so but I would argue that playing a "Hooligan" army would be showing less taste.

Yes it was my deliberate decision to have Germans. So they can't be discussed like you say in your post.

If i deliberately decide to play a hooligan army, suddenly i am showing less taste and it can be discussed?

So what you are saying is that "to each it's own" only applies when you find "my own" tastefull yourself.  

Don't take this the wrong way though, just pointing out that you can't discuss tastes  

Up to a point I totally agree with your statement.

Should you decide against a "German Army" for personal reasons thats understandable for your case.

I also agree that a growing lot of people uses, rather abuses, football as a platform to get violent. Again, if such is the purpose why go to a football match? Meet with likeminded people and beat the crap out of each other but do it without interfering with other people who do not share your "interest".

Let me return the question then and elaborate when violence served a higher purpose? "The monopoly of force lies with the state" - as the German saying goes. Other than sanctioned application of force by a CIVILIAN authority I have difficulty in finding reasons. Agreed there are people you/me/anyone would like to beat the crap out of for a variety of reasons. Yet such behaviour would be sanctioned. Cutting a long story short, anarchism may look desirable on first look but be advised there IS someone stronger than you and your freedom ends where mine starts. I do not take any offence and I hope you do not either by my reply. Apparently some peple in other forums DO take offence easily but I disgress.

The history of wargaming is relevant to the point as in replaying or simulating conflicts is the essence of the game. To which extent this has to be a military conflict could remain debatable.

The point where taste becomes debatable, imho, is when a majority of people disagrees with certain types of actions. You would agree that playing an army of KZ guards vs inmates is as tasteless as it can get on top of my head. If you were correct this would simply be another "taste" but I believe there is a limit to "taste" although it is sometimes difficult to articulate.