I would say that Leon has just made me really fekking angry....
But I'd point out straight away....It's nothing to do with what Leon himself has done !
It's what he's just found out. (And mailed me about)

Yonks ago, I made some '30+mm' figures, which were my own copyright...supposed to be sold by a (HAH) friend on a royalty basis...along with a load of other stuff which took a solid three and a half months to make.

I made the grand total of £110 for three and a half months work....Basically because the 'friend' never did anything with them at all....And then....after a very short while, wouldn't answer the phone or emails.

Leon's just noticed an ebay sale for just one of these 'unreleased' figures......£75 ??......WHAT !!!

I've still got the rest of the master metals....plus the green masters of the set of six figures
Anyone want to make me a stupid offer ?....Don't worry...I'm only joking about that.
But that really pees me off !

- Phil.

Does that mean that you retain the ownership and copyright in the figures, and have granted him a licence to reproduce them, with royalties to be paid to you? Or that ownership was transferred for a small sum on the basis that royalties would be paid?

Clib.

They're MY copyright.....So supposedly...... no-one can sell them (as production figures) without giving me royalties.... (HAH !!)
Nothing ever signed....apart from e'mails.
As 'one offs' from the master mould....Nothing I can do about it....It's a "rarity".... Never been in proper production.

Wouldn't be worth the 'angst', or cost of making anything out of it.
If this particular figure DID ever become a 'must have' for folk....I'd repair the original....sell it to Leon for a song (I trust him !!)....and make the rarities worthless.

Cheers - Mr Bitter and Twisted...

I'm not sure you can copyright a model.

Copyright applies to written works.

It's a pain in the backside for you either way.  You own rights to the figure, but it would be a hard job proving it, and probably expensive as well.  Then you'd have to prove he's been selling them in bulk to make it worth getting the royalties, etc.  His argument would be that he had some laying around, similarly to you, and has decided to flog them on eBay as a personal item.

A message to eBay to explain the issues surrounding the sale of those items could get better results, but I doubt you'll end up with any financial benefit from any of the sales, and you'd have to get eBay to take an interest as well.

Or just pop him an email listing the eBay sales, with an invoice attached for your royalties!

Quote from: Luddite on 06 December 2012, 09:47:33 PM
I'm not sure you can copyright a model.

Copyright might not be the right word, but an element of the IP would still be retained by Phil under a royalty agreement.

Feeling with you Techno 

Not much you can do that I can see, short of legal action. Shows you that some "friends" are not friends at all. I learned this lesson before and will learn it again I am afraid.

I daresay ebay does not give a flying f... unless you are a big corporation and tell THEM you will sue THEM if they do not do XYZ. Been there, seen that.
All ebay cares about is fee generation.

IP / copyright may be legally different terms but a douche move is a douche move. If you have the email where that person agrees on paying you royalties I would inform that "seller" you will sue him for the royalties - attach email. I would. I also would make a remark what I think of attempting to go behind my back.

People who know me recognise me as a man that has much calmed down over the last 3 or so years (women have that effect) but such stuff p...es me totally off. More and more it appears to me that martial law and putting your fist into some other person is much easier and produces results faster than other types of negotiating. Not that I am giving you any idea Techno.

You may be right L.
But I don't think you are.

Working on the basis of 'my' figures......
It would mean it would be OK for Leon to buy some GW figures from his local branch ....Pop them into a mould and produce multiple copies...and sell them at a reduced price.
I don't think that would work.

Leon...What you say is true....(And I could prove it with a number of Wip photo's) But I don't think it's worth the hassle, or time.....If it's one of the original metal masters.....Fair do's.
Cheers - Phil

AND you do not need a signiture (in german law) - conclusive action it is called. Not sure about UK law. Scottish law is partly very similar to continental law. Engliand may be different.

As far as I can recall copyright is the correct term to apply to miniatures as being definable as sculptures they are listed as one of the types of "artistic work" protected.

Intellectual Property is the term for the general area of law.

Looked it up; Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 Section 4 (1)(a)

Quote from: Techno on 06 December 2012, 10:09:43 PM
You may be right L.
But I don't think you are.

Working on the basis of 'my' figures......
It would mean it would be OK for Leon to buy some GW figures from his local branch ....Pop them into a mould and produce multiple copies...and sell them at a reduced price.
I don't think that would work.

That would be different though, as GW own 100% of the IP, can prove it, and there wouldn't be any grey area at all.  

With this though, you've had some element of an agreement with someone, the details of which could be muddied by him quite easily to his benefit.  To prove you've got complete ownership of the rights to the figures would be tricky if there has been discussion about royalties, etc.  You'd need correspondence proving that you retained full ownership, and he was only getting a commission in essence as a production/sales outlet.

Just to clarify though, I'm entirely on your side with this.  The thing which really rankles with me is his blatant use of your name to make the figures seem legitimate, which is possibly an entirely new legal matter in itself!

Send me the link to the auction Phil - I'll bid £10k for it & then not pay him...howzat?

Or - I'll win it, pay him via Payal, get the figure back, call foul on him through Paypal & get a refund - and then post you your figure back.

Quote from: nikharwood on 06 December 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Send me the link to the auction Phil - I'll bid £10k for it & then not pay him...howzat?

Or - I'll win it, pay him via Payal, get the figure back, call foul on him through Paypal & get a refund - and then post you your figure back.

Despite being Chelski there is a lot I like about you 

Quote from: nikharwood on 06 December 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Send me the link to the auction Phil - I'll bid £10k for it & then not pay him...howzat?

Or - I'll win it, pay him via Payal, get the figure back, call foul on him through Paypal & get a refund - and then post you your figure back.

All ended unfortunately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phil-Lewis-formerly-of-Citadel-GW-unreleased-Chaos-Mutant-dwarf-metal-28mm-/251173687498?nma=true&si=1FSJRbhRGCtNIH8Nd%2BEq1LyyOOI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

£75 for a single figure More money than sense clearly.

I have a few 'friends' in the Lincolnshire area who can pop around and have a 'quiet word'

Don't worry Nosher.
I've calmed down lots now !
Sorry if I appeared to throwing a wobbly....(I was though )

The set of models that I did along with this 'chap'.....Were (we agreed) to be my copyright.
I'd make them 'for free'....He'd advertise and sell them and we'd split the sale price 50/50.
The models even have 'copyright Phil L' on the tab for the base.....Not that I think that's worth Jack Poo really.

As it's an 'unreleased' model....and to my knowledge, to all intents and purposes, it is.....The seller is (I suppose) is quite within his rights to offload it as a 'rarity'...even using my 'name' (dearie, dearie me) as an ex-GW employee....I did make it after all.
What may rankle with the buyer, if he knew, was the piece wasn't anything to do with GW.....I think I made it (along with 5 others) around 6 or 7 years ago.
A long time after leaving GW.

I should really have listened to my old friend and colleague Kev Adams....He warned me to be VERY wary of the 'chap' I was dealing with.
But No....I knew better than Kev. (The 50/50 on the sale price should have set alarm bells ringing shouldn't it ?)

The strange (?) thing is I know that some of the personal 'test' pieces I made while I worked at GW....(I got given almost all of the master metal copies)... do go for silly money when they come up on auction sites as they're 'rare'.  (Hah !)
I sold or gave away almost my entire figure collection a few years after I left GW, which is how they turn up from time to time.

Conversely...with some of the figures I sold all those years ago..I tracked down the buyer of my old Blood Bowl sets.
Not only had he bought the painted models....But also two or three old 'greens'.
He actually asked me if he could use them to make production figures...and pay me royalties.
As far as I was concerned he had the right to do whatever he wanted with them....(he'd bought them outright)...and I wouldn't have really expected to him to 'pay again'...But he insisted....And did.

He seems to have built up a nice miniatures business now....With MUCH MUCH better models than the ones I made all those years ago.
One of the good guys.
Fortunately there seem to be more good guys than bad in the industry !!

And the bad guys we (as designers) tend to warn each other about. ......

That's enough rambling !

With Leon's permission, I might pop a piccy up of the 'Kaos Krew" up on the forum to see whether they produce any interest...Just might be worth seeing if I could get them in production after all this time and angst .

Cheers - A much calmer Phil.