Quote from: clibinarium on 05 November 2012, 11:05:04 PM
Yes absolutely, the same horses will be used. A lot of effort was put into getting the horse and rider dollies just right (hence the delays in getting a few minor issues ironed out). These horses will be used in any horse and musket project I do from now on.

So one question must be asked - what is the size of new horses ?
AWI figures used to be a bit bigger and much more robust than usual Pendraken product. New LoA is generally compatible with old WSS.
Which line the new dollies are closer ?

The new horses are pretty big, though they ought to be for this type of cavalry




It does look like I'll need to do a special set of small horses for the dragoons as well

Quote from: clibinarium on 07 November 2012, 01:24:23 PM
It does look like I'll need to do a special set of small horses for the dragoons as well

That is a great idea. It is one of my pet gripes that manufacturers generally put their cossacks on the same size horses as cuirassiers.

Apart from height there is also a difference in the weight/girth/bulk of the heavier horse.

A nice artical on war horses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_horse

Hi Clib, where did you get your excellent cavalry illustrations from? Are they available in published form?

Quote from: clibinarium on 07 November 2012, 01:24:23 PM
The new horses are pretty big, though they ought to be for this type of cavalry

Does it mean that LoA riders will be smaller than AWI and similar in size to LoA infantrymen ?

Quote from: clibinarium on 07 November 2012, 01:24:23 PM
It does look like I'll need to do a special set of small horses for the dragoons as well

I'm afraid that means we will wait for dragoons till 2014 ...

Quote from: Hertsblue on 08 November 2012, 09:13:33 AM
Hi Clib, where did you get your excellent cavalry illustrations from? Are they available in published form?

The ilustrations are from R. Hall's "French cavalry of Louis XIV" CD.

Last theories state that Medieval Steeds weren't that massives.
Not as draught horses like Percheron at least but more like our modern race horses.

Think it might go that far back - the Baccus site used to have 18th century uniform data.

IanS

Robert Hall  STANDARDS & UNIFORMS OF FRENCH CAVALRY 1688-1714 available on CD for a reasonable price, hardcopy  edition available too but a bit pricey from the Pike and Shot society.

Quote from: maciek on 08 November 2012, 11:00:06 AM
The ilustrations are from R. Hall's "French cavalry of Louis XIV" CD.

Quote from: clibinarium on 08 November 2012, 01:09:08 PM
Robert Hall  STANDARDS & UNIFORMS OF FRENCH CAVALRY 1688-1714 available on CD for a reasonable price, hardcopy  edition available too but a bit pricey from the Pike and Shot society.

Cheers, guys. Much obliged.

Phew! That picture does make the difference clear, doesn't it?

Hi Clib
Great to see the differance in horse size, i have allways want some one to do this for Napoleonic horses. I know that as go get into a campaing the size differance might not have been so great but it was the horse buyers where trying to acheave.

The only one I can remember off the top of my head is the old AB line of 15mm Nappys they had heavy and light horses. Great stuff.

Of course that means that you will have the horses ready for the French Rev range

Look forward to seeing the greens.
William

Anyone care to check my maths on the piccy above ?

I make it that the man standing next to the horse is around 5 foot 8 inches tall.
The large horse is 16 hands (64 inches) to its whithers. (Decent size for a larger horse.)
The small horse is 12.1 hands (49.2 inches) to its whithers. (This is really small.)

I'm only asking...as, as far as I'm aware, to keep some sort of consistency in the size of our (human) figures, we base the height of all of the soldiers we make at 6 foot tall ?

Now...A 6 foot man sitting on the back of a 16 hands tall horse 'looks right'.
A 6 foot man sitting on the back of a 12.1 hands pony would 'dwarf it.'
Don't get me wrong !
I'm certainly NOT disputing the historical accuracy of the picture above.....As far as I'm aware, in many cases throughout history small/very small ponies have been the 'cavalry of choice'...presumably because that was all that was available !
What bothers me is that if Clib DOES make the ponies at this 'correct' size, Leon's going to get oodles of complaints from people who aren't aware of the accuracy of the ponies....They'd rather have models on the table that 'look consistent' and 'right'...Rather than a historically accurate depiction that 'looks wrong'.

Just my two pees worth....Hope the above makes some sort of sense Guys !
Be interesting to see the feedback !

If necessary...I'll take some pics of me later, (6 foot when I stand up straight) against some of the better half's gee-gees to show you what I mean.

Cheers - Phil.

Maths sound right, though I haven't checked them. Hall specifically states in his text that dragoon horses were about 12 hands (though they adopt larger horses as the 18th century goes on), in this period its more about moving the dragoons around than engaging with enemy cavalry.
I suspect that smaller recruits made their way into the dragoons, so you probably wouldn't get many six footers among them. I can't recall the average height of a 18th century Frenchman, but it was a lot less than six feet. Its only about a head's worth of difference at maximum.
When it comes to 10mm I worry more about the figure compared to other 10mm figures than their scale height. (though I did pitch my 28mm men at about 5'8'' in scale as far as I can recall.)
So the dragoon horses will be smaller, maybe not 12 hands but not far off, the riders something in the 5' to 5'5'' range, or whatever "looks" right to me. That's the real test actually; whether it looks right to me. Pendraken have pretty much always let me use my best judgement, and ,my own specifications.

As for people complaining about smaller horses not being right, well that's not the sort of complaint I'd long entertain. Though I understand its Dave and Leon who have to do the entertaining rather than me, so its easier for me to say than for them to do. Anyway maybe it will act as a reminder to the customer; "don't throw these guys against those cuirassiers across the way" 

I' say men were more 5 feet 5 (1m65) or less than 6 feet.

Nowadays it's 1m74...5 feet 9 inches.

In french, but Google translate may help :

http://www.napoleon1er.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3961&highlight=taille+++grenadier

Quote from: clibinarium on 10 November 2012, 01:23:45 PM
So the dragoon horses will be smaller, maybe not 12 hands but not far off, the riders something in the 5' to 5'5'' range, or whatever "looks" right to me. That's the real test actually; whether it looks right to me. Pendraken have pretty much always let me use my best judgement, and ,my own specifications.

Cheers Clib.
You've hit the nail on the head with 'what looks right'.....Which when it boils down to it, is what has to be done with just about everything at this scale....
There just has to a fair amount of 'compromise'.

Quote from: barbarian on 10 November 2012, 01:52:22 PM
I' say men were more 5 feet 5 (1m65) or less than 6 feet.
Nowadays it's 1m74...5 feet 9 inches.

'B'...
I'm sure you're right....Mankind's 'average height' seems to have varied quite significantly over the centuries....Up and down and up again depending on the period...and presumably dependent on the populations' diet/nutrition.
I guess everything works OK on the tabletop because we have forces from the same 'times' fighting each other...So it doesn't really matter whether '10'mm represents 5 foot 5 inches...5 foot 8 inches, or more....Both sides should be 'the same'.

As a matter of interest....Were any wars/battles fought between sides that would have been noticeably taller/shorter (on average) than each other ?

Cheers again - Phil.