Anyway, I've played a bit of FoW and was largely disappointed by the rules.
Anyone else think these are crappy ?

Actually, I quite like them... 
A few bits don't ring true, but I still like them (and I run one of the biggest comps each year)... 
I'll get me coat! 

Have played several FoW games, and I state that it is a good game but a poor wargame 

I wouldn't play it out of choice 
But then, I've got a better set of my own rules   
Which are free to anyone who wants a set, just email me (they cover WW2 to modern, and pretty much 1930s+ as well)

I've tried FoW but it never really grabbed me the way BKC did (and still does), but each to their own. Some things just plain annoyed me, others I thought worked rather well.

Quote from: barbarian on 17 July 2012, 05:41:48 PM
Anyway, I've played a bit of FoW and was largely disappointed by the rules.
Anyone else think these are crappy ?

They are the worst set of WWII rules ever written.

Flames of Warhammer.


OK, here's a scenario we played out for a historical campaign we were running.

British infantry platoon supported by 2 HMGs entrenched on a rocky hilltop.
German company (3 platoons) attacking up the hill.

We figure, the British will probably lose the position due to German numbers but it'll be a close run thing.

By turn 3 the Germans completely wiped out the British without a single German loss.

Rules that allow that sort of result rally are nothing but a joke.  It's the only time i've ever thrown my toys out of the pram at a game table.

Hmmm, that was bad to say the least. I played a game which I had won by the start of turn 2; my Desert Brits outflanked some Fallschirmjager and brought them to break point on turn 1. Not satisfying for anyone involved .

I've played several games now, including the one with my Japs and the 14th Army, and I must admit to serious reservations. The rate of attrition amongst the infantry is far too high IMHI and, like a lot of WW2 rules, FOW don't give enough value to the fact that the PBI can hide behind almost anything more than knee-high. However, given they are designed for convention gaming, with the accent on playability, and the avoidance of grey areas, rather than accuracy, they do serve their purpose.

One of the forgotten rules of Flames, non-moving or firing infantry and gun-teams (v3) are always 'gone-to-ground' and concealed, therefore +2 to hit. Long range (+16") adds an additional +1 to hit.
Vets = 4 to hit normally.
Trained 3+ to hit normally.
Conscript 2+ to hit normally.
Then if GTG all get a 3+ save, firing or moving gun teams get a 5+
Means Vets can't be seen at long range and are damned hard to kill at short!

You don't know how fiendishly often my opponents can roll 4+ 

50% of the time? 

Luddite's scenario = 3 rifle squads with Brens, 1 PHQ squad with 2" mortar and PIAT, and two Vickers MMG, all sited and dug in
versus: CHQ squad
3 platoons each 3 rifle squads with MG34/42, 1 PHQ squad with PzB39 or Pzshreck
1 platoon with 2 MMG and 2x 81mm mortars or 3x 5cm mortars (if earlier war)

could certainly beat that British force with minimal loss. But not in 3 moves. Suppress and smoke the position with the 81mm till all the ammo is gone, coupled with long range suppressive fire from the MMGs and one platoon, whilst two platoons flank the feature from both sides for a final assault mop up. The mortar and MMG fire will not inflict many (or even any) casaulties, but will suppress and pin the defenders, reducing their fire and spotting significantly. The integral company mortars are the key.

Of course, if you did an unprepared frontal assault with grenades and bayonet, then expect to be wiped out!

The attrition rates against infantry are far too high in most rules, but they are speeded up for game playability.And most get round it by saying "they are not necessarilty all dead, just out of action for game". I agree with Hertsblue, FoW is too lethal that way. And tank crews bailing out and hiding behind their tank to get back in again later is farcical!

All my experience of FoW is v.1 - if that makes a difference.

By the way, we're not abashed at using the models, several club members have 15mm FoW based armies, we just use them with different rules, in our case one base representing one infantry squad.

I dont like the lack of oppertunity  fire, no spotting, no hidden movement and all he liittle add ons to make you units special...too much to remember, I have played a couple of good games with it but they were both umpired..If I was going to Play WW2 in no particular order they would be CD, BKC or Crossfire

Quote from: Steve J on 17 July 2012, 06:21:51 PM
I've tried FoW but it never really grabbed me the way BKC did (and still does) (...)

I agree with you.  And I was very disappointed with FoW. May be because I'm not a "tournament player".
( I also use FoF for skirmish SCW1936 )

Quote from: sultanbev on 18 July 2012, 09:10:41 AM
Luddite's scenario = 3 rifle squads with Brens, 1 PHQ squad with 2" mortar and PIAT, and two Vickers MMG, all sited and dug in
versus: CHQ squad
3 platoons each 3 rifle squads with MG34/42, 1 PHQ squad with PzB39 or Pzshreck
1 platoon with 2 MMG and 2x 81mm mortars or 3x 5cm mortars (if earlier war)

could certainly beat that British force with minimal loss. But not in 3 moves. Suppress and smoke the position with the 81mm till all the ammo is gone, coupled with long range suppressive fire from the MMGs and one platoon, whilst two platoons flank the feature from both sides for a final assault mop up. The mortar and MMG fire will not inflict many (or even any) casaulties, but will suppress and pin the defenders, reducing their fire and spotting significantly. The integral company mortars are the key.

Of course, if you did an unprepared frontal assault with grenades and bayonet, then expect to be wiped out!

The attrition rates against infantry are far too high in most rules, but they are speeded up for game playability.And most get round it by saying "they are not necessarilty all dead, just out of action for game". I agree with Hertsblue, FoW is too lethal that way. And tank crews bailing out and hiding behind their tank to get back in again later is farcical!

All my experience of FoW is v.1 - if that makes a difference.

By the way, we're not abashed at using the models, several club members have 15mm FoW based armies, we just use them with different rules, in our case one base representing one infantry squad.

The Germans simply fired up their jet packs, got into assault by turn 2 and chainsawed the British into pulp by turn 3.

Absolutely ridiculous.

Quote from: Luddite on 17 July 2012, 08:19:33 PM
They are the worst set of WWII rules ever written.

Flames of Warhammer.

Well, seeing as they grew out of Warhammer Panzer Battles - a WW2 mod for Warhammer 40k - that's hardly surprising, is it?

Cheers, Martyn