We've always tried to be very transparent when it comes to the business, but we don't tend to post much personal stuff, as it's always felt a little unprofessional.  Unfortunately this is affecting the business, so I've decided to put it out there and then everyone is on the same page.

This is also the main reason why we've decided to take a break from the shows (more info on that here: https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,23910.0.html)

Many of you will already be aware that I'm not much of a 'morning person', but there's actually a bit more to it than that.

After about 20 years of struggling with it, I was finally diagnosed last year with something called Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_sleep_phase_disorder)  This basically means that my body doesn't recognise night and day so I don't have a regular 24-hr sleep/wake cycle.

In a regular person, what should happen is that photoreceptors in your eyes recognise that it's getting dark at night and trigger melatonin production.  The melatonin makes you drowsy and you fall asleep.  At the other end, as it gets light outside, the melatonin is turned off and you start to wake up.

For whatever reason, that whole system doesn't work for me.  The doctors don't know whether my photoreceptors are broken, the melatonin isn't produced, or that I simply don't respond to melatonin.

Whichever it is, it doesn't work properly and instead of night/day I only have tired/not-tired.  Going to bed earlier doesn't achieve anything, so I could try to sleep at midnight but I'll lay there awake for hours until my body decides it's time to sleep.

My internal cycle seems to be 24hrs + X, so my sleep/wake pattern gets slightly later every day.  This might only be a minute or two, but it stacks up over time and eventually I'm completely out of whack and sleeping during the day.

This has happened many times and when it gets to its worst I'll be awake until 8am-9am and then not waking until after 2pm-3pm. 

My usual way of fixing this is to stay up all night and force myself to fall asleep at an earlier time through sleep deprivation.  This usually allows me to sleep something along the lines of 10-11pm until 3-4am and then I'll wake up.  Over the following days/weeks it hopefully settles to something more normal for a while.

The doctors have said that the best-case scenario for me is to be able to fall asleep around 3am-4am and wake at 10am-11am, but this will still shift around and need constant management.

Fighting against my natural cycle only makes things worse and causes varying levels of fatigue, as well as a reduced immune system and poor mood.

One factor that affects this quite a bit is attending the wargames shows.  The doctor said that for every 1hr that I'm awake earlier than my current cycle, it'll take 1 day to recover from the early morning.  So if I'm waking up at midday but have to get up for an event at 7am, it'll take 5 days for me to recover from that.  This recovery period can stack up too, so when we do the 2-day show at Warfare in November, I can be looking at 2-weeks of fatigue before I've got over it.

Personally speaking, it's not much fun and gets incredibly frustrating.  Society expects us all to fit into a traditional 9-5 existence and I'm very aware that it doesn't look good when I'm not at work with the rest of the staff.  So I do my best to fight against the sleep pattern, and make sure that I'm still managing to work my usual 60-70 hours per week.  So while I might not be at work at 9am, or 11am, or even 2pm at times, I'll still be working until midnight or 3am to make up for it.

I'll continue to do my best to get as close to 'normal' but I think taking a break from the shows is probably best so that I can try and maintain a regular sleep schedule for a while.

I'm happy to chat about this if anyone has any questions.

Sympathy. Messed up sleep is a swine and a half.

Leon, I have a similar problem, except that the doctors haven't given it a name since they can't work out which bit of me is broken.  

I'm basically on 24hrs + 1 so like you I find myself unable to sleep at night then a few days later unable to fall asleep during the day. It's maddening and while I was working it played hob with my health and ability to function at work sometimes.

I would regularly stay awake for 36 - 48 hours at a stretch to leave myself dog tired enough to fall asleep at an "appropriate" time. Then be out of kilter for days after.

Of course, now I'm retired and on my own I can actually sleep when I'm tired and not have to bother too much about whether anyone else is tired too! Not much help to you, I realise.

So, you have my sympathy. I'll be sorry not to catch up with you at shows but your health is far more important.

I will leave you with these two pieces of folk wisdom about sleep patterns  

"Late to bed and early to rise
Gives you dark circles under the eyes!"

and

"Early to rise and early to bed
Makes a man healthy but socially dead!"

That is a complete sod, Leon.

Sympathy from me, as well.

All the best - Phil.

Sorry to hear that Leon ! I can only imagine one it must be like, based upon the very irregular hours I used to work, that at times would take 2 weeks to recover from. After one very hectic job, my body wouldn't stop producing adrenaline, so I was signed off for a week to try and allow my body to get back to normal, which it eventually did. All the best!

Hugs.
I say let your body do what it needs, and damn social conventions.

Well that can't be fun to live with. 

But listen to your body. Changing working hours around is a small adjustment. You are right we are conditioned to working 9 to 5. But lots of people don't - you've worked in hospitality - you know this. And with offshore working the actual times worked shift even more. 

It probably feels a bit odd as the boss saying to the team come in for this time, but I'll see you at lunch time. But they must know how hard you work, and I'm sure you have explained the above to them. So I doubt it would be a perceived as a problem. 

One bit in your explanation made my science brain twitch

Quote  The doctors don't know whether my photoreceptors are broken, the melatonin isn't produced, or that I simply don't respond to melatonin.

As melatonin is available in tablet form, I'm kind of surprised that the the last bit hasn't been able to be tested?

You have my sympathies, Sir. I can mildly appreciate, as I am on medication which means getting out of bed two or three times per night - or suffer the consequences. Poor sleep is a massive drag on living.



It does support my theory that you are not of this Earth; your body is set to the cycle of another planet.

My sympathy in dealing with this and all the trouble it causes.
I think you'll find that wargamers - who hobby in lead and bloodshed - are an empathetic bunch away form the gaming table.


If you'll endure ... some ramblings from a "not a medical person, but three in the family".

Studies of people who exist without daylight (Northern Norwegians, Antarctic Scientists, Trapped Chilean Miners ...) show us reverting to an average 25 hour day.
Your human clock isn't broken.


I'd imagine doctors have explored melotonin tablets.
I first encountered these working in the USA where some frequent fliers tossed them back like smarties.
Accustomed to British medical norms I was concerned by the whole "Ask your doctor about ..." culture.

It's available in the UK on prescription only.
I venture that a trial would eliminate the "Don't know whether I respond to melatonin" question.

Alas there's no free lunch: Users cannot drive, operate machinery, drink alcohol and there's a lengthy list of other things to avoid.
There's also a list of potential side effects - the most common sounding like the irritability and disorientation of sleep deprivation.

About melatonin - NHS


Apologies if this repeats stuff you already know.
And my best wishes.

Long term health problems are an absolute pain....my sympathies..

Leon

That's unpleasant for you.  Personally I believe you need to do what you need to do for your health - as that impacts you and your family. If you can manage the business round that then that's good but 'extras' - like shows are just that.

Edward

Ah ha, that explains the many emails/posts-at-midnight kind of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if you put it to half the workforce, they would be similar. Opening the offices for a 3pm-11pm or 3am-11am shift or whatever might actually prove popular.

The 9-5 working is an unbiological premise, a human construct that doesn't exist in nature, so don't fight it, embrace whatever difference your body operates at. I certainly do, I frequently go to bed at 1-2am, get up at 8-11am, have a 20 minute nap in the afternoon and work whenever I feel comfortable. Sometimes I get up, have breakfast, check emails, then have to sit in the armchair and sleep for 2 hours, often after doing 3 hours gardening in the previous morning. I just roll with it now. It's a bit of a privilege of being self-employed, living on my own and heading to part-retirement, so might not be applicable, but perhaps something to think about.

In the grander scheme of things, our bodies have been invaded by a whole plethora of toxins over the last 70 years - microplastics, nano-plastics, PFAS forever chemicals, herbicides, pesticides, tyre rubber fragments, EM radiation, and so on, that it's not surprising people are experiencing these kinds of things. No one really knows how these interact all together in differing doses. Your lack of melatonin response could be related to any of these, and it's probably unmeasurable.

As for shows, I'm not fully convinced they are profitable, (edit - I wrote this before seeing your other post )  and I think they are slowly declining as the cost of living crisis continues. Other than paints and brushes I regularly fail to find much of what I need at most shows, so am inclined to go to less. Am sure the money and time saved could be diverted into more sculpting.

Hi Leon

Just wanted to say all the very best and good luck.

Cheers Paul

Hi Leon

You will know by now that you are not alone.

I am an out-patient with Sleep Medicine at the Edinburgh Royal Infirmary.

I am being treated for parasomnia which is basically all sorts of sleep disturbances.

My main symptoms are hallucinations, nightmares and sleep walking each of which are increasingly disruptive.

I spent 4 months on a course of melatonin drug. It produced no improvement whatsoever.

I have a fairly rigid sleeping schedule, bed at 10PM, book reading till 11PM at latest, no laptop, kindle or mobile phone, lights out, sleep wearing a mask.

This works fairly well for a few days at a time then I'll have a disruptive event or two.

More recently I have been taking a drug called clonazepam which was a complete bad idea as I turned into a zombie (no jokes please). I have stopped taking it now.

I am seeing a Neurologist in a few days. I have a history of TIA's as well as heart related problems and cancer.

So, Leon, my good friend, you are indeed not alone. We are all collectively and individually rooting for you.

Take care.

Jim Duncan

A very wise decision to drop the shows, Leon.
You've got to listen to your body and health and allow them to dictate your life pattern.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Hugh

Your health has to come first Leon.

Wishing you all the best

Orcs

It certainly explains the reasons we've been doing the "answer at 2am" jokes.

I have sympathy. I'm a naturally late person, not a condition like you though, just a late person, so I understand your frustration.

Look at it this way; you are part of the reason for the survival of humanity: you would be awake and guarding the sleeping tribe.

I completely understand as I have similar issues.  It's a vicious cycle - takes hours to get to sleep, wake up with little sleep, feel tired all day. But the when it's time to sleep, you can't.  This goes on for weeks until your body just can't go on anymore and just crashes for a few days. If you find a remedy, please let us know.

As many have said - You are not alone!
I too have always had a "strange" sleep cycle.

Put your health (and the profitability of our favourite company) first.

Wishing you well,
S_R

I had a similar issue with sleep patterns (really for as long as I can remember), the "fix" for me was strangely leaving the lights on, having an audiobook playing all night, and lastly drinking a coffee before bed. All the things that are supposed to stop you falling asleep seem to work in reverse for me. For me trying to fall asleep in a dark room with no noise is an exercise in frustration (plus a craving for coffee). I've not been diagnosed for anything yet around the sleep patterns (I wonder if there is such a thing for what I have).