Pierre - "Thanks for the run down of how you play them."
Not a problem. While it certainly dips into "my way," the overall point I was trying to make is that what I wrote is the guts of the game, just the transmission gets a little garbled when reading the rules, so hopefully this helps make the core mechanisms a bit clearer and easier to understand.

And I can't wait to see you back in action with those (modified) 'Battle of Britain' rules, was loving your campaign following the squadron of Zeros.  Can't wait to see where you're going with the Phantoms/Sabres/etc...

Fred - No problem, happy to help, let me know if I may be of further service!

Ithoriel - Thanks man, I appreciate it!  If you're trying to understand the mechanics and count my activations, I'll throw in that, so long as I believe the variables fit, I'll allow group moves, usually meaning a platoon with their leader can move everybody at once (but not shoot and can't move into close combat, though I'll even do that sometimes for super highly-trained/experienced/motivated troops if I feel like it makes sense given the tactical situation) for the cost of a single activation. 

And I guess that leads to another of my wargaming philosophies: nothing happens on my table because the rules allow it/nothing doesn't happen because the rules don't allow it, it happens because I believe it could happen in real life.  Of course you want to live within the framework of the rules, and if the dice say I only get to move four stands this turn then I only move four stands, but what I mean is something like "the rules make no provision for infantry to to pin/suppress a tank with small arms fire," but I'm convinced that the infantry could actually cause the tank some problems because they just startled the tank crew by materializing from an unexpected direction and/or much closer than the tankers thought any enemy infantry could be, then guess what, I'm letting those infantry fire with 1S (a 33% chance of a pin or suppression).

And those were the "Battle of Britain" rules, thanks to Raider for digging up that old thread!

V/R,
Jack

Quote from: bigjackmac on 12 January 2023, 04:19:08 AMAnd I guess that leads to another of my wargaming philosophies: nothing happens on my table because the rules allow it/nothing doesn't happen because the rules don't allow it, it happens because I believe it could happen in real life.  Of course you want to live within the framework of the rules, and if the dice say I only get to move four stands this turn then I only move four stands, but what I mean is something like "the rules make no provision for infantry to to pin/suppress a tank with small arms fire," but I'm convinced that the infantry could actually cause the tank some problems because they just startled the tank crew by materializing from an unexpected direction and/or much closer than the tankers thought any enemy infantry could be, then guess what, I'm letting those infantry fire with 1S (a 33% chance of a pin or suppression).
V/R,
Jack

When I said I liked your approach that was what I was referring to.

As I keep quoting - "rules are for the advice of wise men and the adherence of fools" :-)

Also, I've read several accounts of tankers of various nations deciding not to hang around to see if the guys with the rifles and machine guns also have satchel charges or panzerfausts!

I think the option you picked for infantry suppressing a tank feels right. 

And I think this is the challenge with most rules, is getting something that feels right to most players most of the time. On the infantry vs armour point I've played a set were it was far too easy for infantry to suppress armour at range (and this wasn't a 1:1 set) it just made the game weird. Was even advised by the author to fire my MGs and mortars at the tanks as it would be just as effective at suppressing them as firing against an AT gun and some soft skins (I think it was 50% chance per shot)

BKC (IIRC) offers a slim chance a 6 to hit followed by a 6 to suppress for small arms vs armour - this can be a bit annoying as players will take the roll each time they can, even with a very low chance to do anything. This is at a platoon level so may be OK, but does feel a bit low?

Ithoriel - "When I said I liked your approach that was what I was referring to."
Ahh, gotcha!

"As I keep quoting - "rules are for the advice of wise men and the adherence of fools" :-)"
Indeed, just not sure where I fall on that spectrum

"Also, I've read several accounts of tankers of various nations deciding not to hang around to see if the guys with the rifles and machine guns also have satchel charges or panzerfausts!"
Yes, no doubt, and particularly unescorted tanks.  And I can't claim it as a mechanism, I think I first read it in Peter Pig's "Poor Bloody Infantry," which are a nifty little set of rules that don't get enough attention/acclaim, in my opinion.  Part of that is down to the fact it kinda begs for some different basing, and loads of casualty figures.

Fred, "And I think this is the challenge with most rules, is getting something that feels right to most players most of the time."
That's the beauty of it; I'm either playing solo, or with my sons, though I perfectly understand your point, just being a bit of a wise-ass

"On the infantry vs armour point I've played a set were it was far too easy for infantry to suppress armour at range (and this wasn't a 1:1 set) it just made the game weird. Was even advised by the author to fire my MGs and mortars at the tanks as it would be just as effective at suppressing them as firing against an AT gun and some soft skins (I think it was 50% chance per shot)"
That's interesting, I'm not sure I've ever seen a set of rules where it was too easy for MGs/mortars to have a pinning/suppressing-type effect on armor; usually the armor is treated as completely impervious, even to some relatively large bore (but low velocity) guns lobbing HE-fire in direct-fire mode.

"BKC (IIRC) offers a slim chance a 6 to hit followed by a 6 to suppress for small arms vs armour - this can be a bit annoying as players will take the roll each time they can, even with a very low chance to do anything. This is at a platoon level so may be OK, but does feel a bit low?"
It's funny, when you wrote the previous paragraph, the first set of rules that came to mind was BKC, but I wasn't sure as I'd never played the original, picked up in BKC II (which I still think are the best of the line).  Regarding a 6 followed by another 6, yeah, that's pretty damn rough, but having said that, maybe the logic is that one stand=one platoon and it's harder overall to pin/suppress a platoon, which generally I could agree with from the standpoint of MGs/mortars engaging a platoon of tanks.

But that goes to exactly what we were talking about in terms of 'feel.'  If the tanks were out in the open, taking long-range fire, relatively well trained and confident in what they were doing, I'd agree they probably shouldn't be bothered by some MG fire or ~81mm mortar fire, just button up and press on.  But if they're less well trained, less committed/confident, if the fire is coming from some nearby houses or woods that could hide some anti-tank weapons, well, for each one of those factors that is applicable I might add a Shock dice   And to your point about having to come to consensus with your gaming mates, I could see working through the issue in a collegial manner and ultimately coming to an agreement about what should be rolled, like "I'm firing with these MGs at close range, the tankers are caught completely unaware, they're not particularly well trained, and they're not particularly committed to what they're doing (they're physically isolated from friendly forces, or suffer from a lack of situational awareness due to not having radios, or they believe they're already losing the battle or that their task is impossible or useless, or the war's almost over), so I think my MG should fire with 4 Shock dice."  "I hear what you're saying, and things are bad, but let's not forget, they are in tanks, which can't actually be hurt by your pesky little machine guns, and they've while they might be caught off guard, these guys have been around, been fighting this war for three years now, and they know your guys don't have any ranged anti-tank capability available on this end of the line, so let's not get too carried away, so how 'bout we let them fire with 2 Shock dice?"  And if it comes down that we can't agree between 2S and 3S, then roll a D6 or flip a coin.  I know it slows the game down a bit, but I always thought those types of discussions were pretty fun and interesting.

V/R,
Jack

 All,

1600 Local Time
8 November 1942
Near Port Lyautey, French Morocco

Despite the ass-chewing he'd just received from Major Reisman, Captain Henry, commander of the Task Force's Armored Reconnaissance Company, failed to perform the tasks given him, in a manner appropriate to the situation.  The French had a fortress ("the Kasbah") between the American forces and Port Lyautey, one that was proving severely problematic, but the Major believed a flanking movement to the south (right) could unhinge the defense, if executed quickly and violently.  Yes, the situation on the invasion beaches was chaotic, men and gear were intermixed, but the Task Force had just forced the French garrison out of the town of Mehdia and needed to act before the French had an opportunity to establish another line, particularly in that direction.  Major Reisman had picked out a small village with a bridge over a tributary of the Wadi Sebou as the correct target of this rapier-like armored thrust.  He just needed someone to get there.


Overview, north is up.  At center left, just east (right) of the crossroads, is a small oasis with a couple hovels.  Below and at top left are unnamed bluffs, while at left top is a knoll identified as Hill 23, soon to be known as "Purple Heart Hill," while at far right is Hill 55, soon to be known as "The Meatgrinder."  At top center right is Hill 34, while the village of Barhrein, soon to be known as "Murderville," sits on either side of the bridged Wadi Sebou tributary. 

The French have their 1st Rifle Platoon dug-into 'Murderville' (center top), accompanied by the overall French commander, with their Weapons Platoon (mortar and MG) dug-in right behind them, just across the Wadi Sebou (right top).  The French 2nd Rifle Platoon is dug-in on The Meatgrinder (far right), where it is accompanied by one of the 75mm guns.  The other 75mm gun is dug-in just behind Hill 34 (top right), and it is accompanied by the two armored vehicles (Laffly armored car and R35 tank), which are hidden between the buildings east of the Wadi Sebou (top right).  It should be noted that, save for the troops on The Meatgrinder, which are dug-in and begin the game concealed, the remainder of the French defenders are occupying what I would refer to as oblique, 'reverse-slope defense' type of positions, i.e., those that limit their lanes of observation and fire, but generally force the enemy into vulnerable and/or exposed positions in order to engage them.

For their part, the Americans can be seen coming in on their baseline, with advance elements of the force clustered around the crossroads (left bottom) and approaching Purple Heart Hill (left top), with the Armored Infantry and Engineer Platoons still mounted and off table.


The opposing forces, with Americans at left and French at right.  The Yanks have three tanks, two Scout Cars, a Tank Destroyer, a platoon of armored infantry, and a platoon of engineers, while the French have two rifle platoons, a weapons platoon (81mm mortar and MG team), two 75mm howitzers, an armored car, and a light tank.


Lt Richards (bottom center) staring into Murderville (top center).


"Well, I don't see anything out there, and the Major said we need to move quickly, so..."


The US mechanized force bravely (rashly?) dashes ahead!  The Armored Infantry Platoon, led by a Scout Car and two M3 Stuarts, pushes right, towards The Meatgrinder (just visible at far right), while the Engineer Platoon, led by a Scout Car, pushes left, towards Murderville, as the last M3 Stuart and the Tank Destroyer move up on Purple Heart Hill (left top).


And then all hell breaks loose!

This was my favorite fight of the entire campaign in Morocco!  To see what happened, please check the blog at:
https://hakunamatatawars.blogspot.com/2023/01/hell-on-wheels-operation-torch-fight-3.html

So, that was a helluva fight!  What's next?  The French, feeling saucy, have launched a counterattack on the invasion beaches, and Major Reisman himself is being forced to fend off!

V/R,
Jack

       

That was expensive for the Americans

One small point, the R35 has a one-man turret so the commander was talking to himself when he ordered
"gunner, enemy tank, 300 meters, load armor piercing shell, fire!"

Another superb looking game there Jack. I thought it might be tough for the US Infantry when in your intro you mentioned Murderville etc: I was not wrong! You really are developing a great narrative there Jack which to my mind brings a lot more fun to a game. Looking forward to seeing what happens next.

Another cracking game and write up Jack

Helping me pass an early morning train trip. Where the driver has just had to switch the train off and on again (no joke) to hopefully clear a fault.

Paul - Yeah, it was a rough one, and you're just misunderstanding, that French tank commander was very officious, insisted on his driver coming up and squeezing in to fire the main gun in order to stand in the turret, looking regal   Yeah, when I was typing it up I wasn't thinking about it being a one-man turret...

Steve - Yeah, seeing a local village referred to as "Murderville" is a dead give away; no one ever said I'm clever!!!    It sure was a fun fight, though.

Fred - Thanks, and glad to be of service!  Hope everything got worked out.

V/R,
Jack

All,

0230 Local Time
9 November 1942
Near Port Lyautey, French Morocco

The French forces, feeling their oats after stonewalling Task Force Reisman at 'Murderville'/'The Meatgrinder' and defeating several attacks by the 60th Infantry Regiment of the US 9th Infantry Division on 'The Kasbah,' and have decided to sally forth with armored forces to counterattack the US invasion beaches!

Chaos reigns on the US beachhead, in equal parts due to the inherent confusion in conducting an amphibious assault, horrible weather at sea, and seeing their first actual combat.  Dazed and confused young men are wandering to and fro while as other sit, listless, with units intermixed and scattered, with ammunition, supplies, and casualties haphazardly strewn about.  Major Reisman and his XO, Captain Thigpen, work tirelessly to untangle the mass of men, machines, and gear, sorting it out and directing traffic, looking to get his force organized for optimal combat efficiency.  The TF Reisman defensive line, such as it is, is not dug in, and consists of a smattering of inter-mixed infantry squads and weapons simply flung out in a line running roughly north-south on the eastern end of the town of Mehdia.


Overview, north is up.  The edge of Mehdia is just visible at bottom left, while the village of Jalaat is at top right and the village of Bilal is at bottom right.  Hill 41 is at left center, Hill 33 is at top center (with an unnamed hill just right of it), Hill 25 is at far right bottom, and here is a citrus orchard at center top.  A bend in the river, known as the 'Wadi Sebou,' is visible at top left.  The US forces are spread from top center to bottom center, while the French have a column in the northeast (top right) and southeast (bottom right).


The opposing forces, with US at left and French at right.

The US will start with the forces at top right (two platoons' worth of infantry, a .30-cal MG, 1 60mm mortar, and a 37mm anti-tank gun -ATG-, commanded by 2nd Lt Olsavsky of 3rd Platoon, Easy Company) on the table.

Then the US will receive two waves of reinforcements: first, Major Reisman will lead another .30-cal MG, another 37mm ATG, and an M7 Priest into the fight.  These will be followed by three M3 Grants under 2nd Lt Searcy.

The French have two rifle platoons, two MG teams, an 81mm mortar team, three Laffly armored cars, and three R35 light tanks, led by a Commanding Officer (CO), Executive Officer (XO), and a Weapons Platoon Leader, split in two columns.


The French (top right) push forward as American infantry on Hill 41 (bottom left) and in the orchard (left top) engage them with small arms and machine guns.


As well as their 60mm mortars.


But the French mercilessly pound Hill 41 with their own mortars...


While their infantry and armor press home the attack under withering fire!


A savior steps forward!  But will it be enough?

I suppose you'll have to check the blog to find out
https://hakunamatatawars.blogspot.com/2023/01/hell-on-wheels-operation-torch-fight-4.html

Next up we have Captain Henry leading the second assault on 'Murderville' and 'The Meatgrinder.'  Let's hope it goes better than the first...

V/R,
Jack

     

I did wonder about the American wonder weapon

Paul,

Yeah, got a few months ahead of myself in terms of weapons development/issue

V/R,
Jack

Quote from: bigjackmac on 25 January 2023, 08:05:53 PMPaul,

Yeah, got a few months ahead of myself in terms of weapons development/issue

V/R,
Jack

I'm sure that after the last two brusing encounters that Major Reisman will take anything that will give his guys a bit of an edge when they finally get to face their principal adversaries.....if they are wise they will leave the few Tigers in Tunisia to their British allies to deal with... after all Tiger 131 should end up in Bovington 🙂

Peter,

Yeah, no kidding, they need every possible advantage!  And yes, you shall see Tigers, in the not too distant future

V/R,
Jack

All,

0730 Local Time
9 November 1942
Near Port Lyautey, French Morocco

The French counterattacked the invasion beaches early this morning; lucky it wasn't aimed at Captain Henry's Armored Reconnaissance Company, which was bloodied, confused, and sleeping in the open desert to the southwest of the invasion beaches, with barely anything worthy of being called a 'defensive line' established.  In any case, the French pressed hard on the beaches, in two columns; Lt Olsavsky, bolstered by the Major's late arrival, held it together just along to allow his crew-serves to separate the enemy infantry from the tanks, and then some kid named Tippett popped up and knocked out two French armored vehicles with one of those new rocket launchers! 

And now we return to 'Murderville'/'The Meatgrinder.'  To refresh your memory, the Americans hit the beach yesterday morning and secured the beaches relatively quickly, albeit with plenty of chaos and confusion owing to the inherent nature of an amphibious operation, their first taste of combat, and bad weather/sea conditions.  US forces in the area were being pummeled by French artillery in and around 'The Kasbah,' an ancient, walled fortress; despite this, US forces quickly secured the town of Mehdi, immediately behind the invasion beaches, and Major Reisman had the idea to push mechanized elements around The Kasbah in a wide, sweeping movement to the south. 

To that end, the Major ordered his Armored Reconnaissance Company commander, Captain Henry, to grab what forces he had to hand and immediately step off, hoping to catch the French off balance, but it didn't quite work out due to the fact Captain Henry drug his feet.  The mechanized column didn't depart for more than six hours AFTER Major Reisman gave the order, and it did so under the command of 1st Lt Richards, the Armored Recon Company's Executive Officer, because Captain Henry was still dallying on the beach.  Rather than catching the enemy off guard, Lt Richards' column ran into well-armed and determined defenses manned by French Colonial troops

Ultimately, a long and bloody battle was fought, and the French defenders held their ground.  The American force fell back in disarray, leaving gear and casualties on the battlefield, to include the bodies of 1st Lt Richards and the Engineer Platoon leader, 2nd Lt Jefferson, both killed in action.  Finally making his way forward, off the beaches, Captain Henry ran smack into the retreating American force, go them halted and calmed down, and began piecing together what happened.  Wracked with guilt over Lt Richards' death on a mission HE should have been leading, Captain Henry took out his wrath on Sgt Kidd, the hapless commander of an M3 Gun Motor Carriage (half-tracked tank destroyer mounting a 75mm gun), who had performed quite admirably during the battle but had failed to bring American casualties with him in the confusion of the withdrawal.

After a long, cold, jittery night in the open desert, Captain Henry and his men watched a preparatory artillery barrage pepper the objective as they moved up to the line of departure, preparing to launch their attack the moment the artillery barrage halted.


Overview, north is up.  At center left, just east (right) of the crossroads, is a small oasis with a couple hovels.  Below and at top left are unnamed bluffs, while at left top is a knoll identified as Hill 23, soon to be known as "Purple Heart Hill," while at far right is Hill 55, soon to be known as "The Meatgrinder."  At top center right is Hill 34, while the village of Barhrein, soon to be known as "Murderville," sits on either side of the bridged Wadi Sebou tributary. 

You can see Sgt Foster's destroyed M3 Scout Car on the road at bottom center, Sgt Rasby's M3 Scout Car and Sgt Parker's destroyed M3 Stuart on/near Purple Heart Hill at left top, and the abandoned trucks of the Engineer Platoon at left center (just above the oasis).

The French have their 1st Rifle Platoon dug-into 'Murderville' (center top), accompanied by the overall French commander, with their Weapons Platoon (mortar and MG) dug-in right behind them, just across the Wadi Sebou (right top), and the other MG dug-in atop Hill 34.  The French 2nd Rifle Platoon is dug-in on The Meatgrinder (far right), where it is accompanied by one of the 75mm guns.  The other 75mm gun is dug-in just behind Hill 34 (top right), and it is accompanied by the armored vehicles (R35 tank), which is hidden between the buildings east of the Wadi Sebou (top right).  It should be noted that, unlike in the last fight, where the French occupied 'reverse-slope' type of positions, the Americans are now aware of their presence, so they have decided to move some of their weapons forward in order to have wider field of fire. 

For their part, the Americans can be seen coming in from their baseline, with advance elements of the force clustered around the crossroads (left bottom) and approaching Purple Heart Hill (left top), with the 1st Armored Recon Platoon still mounted and taking the right-hand fork, on its way The Meatgrinder, while the 2nd Armored Recon Platoon has dismounted and is just passing Purple Heart Hill on its way to Murderville.


The opposing forces, with Americans at left and French at right.  The Yanks have both armored infantry platoons supported by scout cars, tanks, tank destroyers, and the last remaining squad of engineers.  The French have two rifle platoons supported by two guns, a tank, and mortars and machine guns.


American M-3 Stuarts push forward (bottom left), dueling with a French 75mm gun at the base of the Meatgrinder (top right).


The Americans on/around Purple Heart Hill are under intense enemy small arms, machine gun, and mortar fire...


As Captain Henry orders halftracked infantry to assault the Meatgrinder.


The French tank sallies forth (bottom right), halting the column of halftracks (far left) before laying into the other  US pincer on/near Purple Heart Hill (top left, with Murderville visible at top center).


You know what time it is!

To see how the fight turned out, please check the blog at:
https://hakunamatatawars.blogspot.com/2023/02/hell-on-wheels-operation-torch-fight-5.html

Next up, the US 9th Infantry Division has been butting its head up against the wall in a series of head-on attacks on the Kasbah Mahdiya, AKA "The Kasbah."  Now it's Task Force Reisman's turn; the Major instinctively turned to his infantry.

V/R,
Jack