As wargamers, we're so used to having a 'God's Eye View.' Here it is for real.



It reminds me of a computer game (in particular, Combat Mission) in terms of the information a drone now affords the modern commander. A piece of kit that costs less than a rifle. It would be interesting to read the views of fellow forum members, particularly the ex-servicemen within our ranks.

By now I'm sure most of us will have seen loads of footage of fighting in this war. But here is another that somehow reminds me as wargamers of our view of the table top (but, of course, all happened in the real world).

It's quite frightening in a way. Reminds me of one of the scenes in the Call of Duty games.



Do you think this is real or staged?

QuoteDo you think this is real or staged?

I'm inclined to think it's not staged, Nobby. The open hatches make me think that the tank has probably been abandoned but still within a Russian zone of control because if not, it would have not have been wasted and pressed into Ukrainian service instead. A good shot. The bombs dropped are often ammo for 35mm or 40mm grenade launchers modified with the addition of fins and attached to the drone. I doubt we would be seeing this video if the bomb had missed. Unfortunately, many of the videos out there quite explicitly feature the loss of life in real world combat. Very sobering and the sooner this war ends, the better.   

Quote from: Westmarcher on 08 October 2022, 04:25:52 PM. I doubt we would be seeing this video if the bomb had missed.

Indeed, Biden himself accidentally admitted back in March that it's taking ten Javelin/other AT systems to kill one Russian tank, so for every video clip showing a tank knocked out, there's probably another nine just showing a lot of smoke and curses.

Mark

QuoteIndeed, Biden himself accidentally admitted back in March that it's taking ten Javelin/other AT systems to kill one Russian tank, so for every video clip showing a tank knocked out, there's probably another nine just showing a lot of smoke and curses.

Mark

Yes, of all of the missiles supplied, there will be ones that miss. But I've also seen Russian videos of captured ones, videos of them being used against strongpoints in Afghanistan (so why not Ukraine), videos of being used against lesser armoured vehicles other than MBTs (e.g., BMPs and patrol vehicles, etc.), there's also the possibility of others being destroyed by enemy action along with their crews (e.g., artillery barrage) and there will still be some out there on fronts where they are still to be used. They cost a lot of money but perhaps not as bad a picture painted?

Quote from: Westmarcher on 08 October 2022, 04:25:52 PMI'm inclined to think it's not staged, Nobby.

It's a bloody good shot.

QuoteIt's a bloody good shot.

Apparently, a lot of the operators are teenagers or young guys in their early twenties who operated their own drones in peacetime for recreational purposes and so are very proficient. There's also a lot of videos out there on YT of drone operators dropping bomblets on other targets (e.g., personnel in foxholes, etc.) with chilling precision. When I see such things, I have to question 'new developments' like the newly released mortar module being touted for the British Army's Boxer which has an open top (I don't yet know if the Army will buy these modules). An open topped vehicle full of mortar rounds? Nice target for a cheap drone armed with a bomblet roving behind the lines. 

QuoteYes, of all of the missiles supplied, there will be ones that miss.

Surely half the effectiveness of the Javelin (other missile systems are available) is the morale aspect. Russia seems to be "metal heavy" and tanks and other AFVs don't seem to have sufficient infantry in support. Thus the threat of the Javelin must be foremost in the minds of those unsupported tankers.

I suppose the parallel may well be the threat of the Panzerfaust in late WWII. Every house has a German with a Panzerfaust, in every bush, behind every wall.

I'm guessing the Russians have/will have something similar. It's warfare in a new dimension.

Yes, I saw that the other day, too. The old story of new weapon ascendent until the counter-measure and so on. Indeed (going back to your earlier post), the morale aspect is not to be ignored (what did Napoleon say again?). WW2 was bad enough but being a soldier today with so much more precision weaponry is even scarier.

One of the things overlooked is that the Soviets/Russian were never able to develop or produce a top-attack ATGW. They have powerful ATGW but they are designed to go through the heavy front armour of tanks, which is not very efficient. Whereas NATO style top-attack missiles/LAWs just get round the problem literally. The difference can be as much as changing a 15% SSKP to 60% SSKP for HEAT warheads. Bit of a game changer.

SSKP = single shot kill probability

The biggest game changer for me was the recently revealed studies showing how Ukraine adopted NATO style tactics after the 2014 war, and took it to heart in their training long before 2022. There's a good article on it somewhere by a retired US general who was involved.

Another aspect is Russian units are not tank heavy despite impressions given, their TOE only shows 10 tanks per battalion tactical group, which should have over 30 APCs. Despite all the alleged reforms and contract soldiers in the last decade, they seem unable to have improved on Cold War Soviet doctrine.

QuoteAnother aspect is Russian units are not tank heavy despite impressions given, their TOE only shows 10 tanks per battalion tactical group, which should have over 30 APCs. Despite all the alleged reforms and contract soldiers in the last decade, they seem unable to have improved on Cold War Soviet doctrine.

Sorry, I may have been unclear. The theory is that they have a lot of tanks and APCs and not enough bodies to go in them. There are stories that BMPs are going in with too few riders to adequately support the tanks.

My expertise is of course, the distillation of others. I find Perun to be quite objective.  Theory is that the Russian army depends upon calling up conscripts; usual state of units are almost a skeleton/maintenance posture. Since Russia isn't at war, it can't call up conscripts so the forces are infantry light.   
(Posted Jun 12)

Good point, yes. The already feeble 7-man squads on TOE, if depleted before combat, would certainly render the infantry much less effective.

Thanks, FSN

A very interesting video

Even if I find his accent annoying