Looks to be an invented weapon on both the ANZAC and Indian Lists, OQF 20pdr towed. Never heard of a towed mount for it only Cents and Charioteers. Am prepared to be corrected on it but seems to be unlikley since the 17pdr was thought to be too heavy.

I suspect that this is an error Ian.

Probably a misunderstanding because the OQF 17pdrs were known as as 17/25-pounders and given the codename Pheasant early on in their development.

The 17pdrs were replaced by the BAT, MOBAT and 120 mm L6 WOMBAT series of recoilless rifles in their ATG role.

Easily resolved.

Only the first few 17pdr, in Tunisia. Also you mised one on the 120's COMBAT, a reworked Mobat with an L4 LMG as ranging gun. Just as an aside and not checked lists for this but MOBAT, COMBAT and WOMBAT all fit in the back of a LWB Landrover. No doubt some one will pop up to say I'm wrong on that, but observed several times. 

Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 24 June 2022, 08:32:10 AMOnly the first few 17pdr, in Tunisia. Also you mised one on the 120's COMBAT, a reworked Mobat with an L4 LMG as ranging gun. Just as an aside and not checked lists for this but MOBAT, COMBAT and WOMBAT all fit in the back of a LWB Landrover. No doubt some one will pop up to say I'm wrong on that, but observed several times. 

I'm not sure that the differences between the COMBAT, MOBAT, WOMBAT are significant enough to differentiate them in the lists, but I will check.

If the Landrover variants could be fired whilst mounted in the vehicle, then that is an omission (which can be corrected) but if they are just transported in the Landrovers, then that option is covered by having the 4x4s in the Transport section. As the COMBAT, MOBAT, WOMBAT are all classified as INF:AT they can be carried by the Landrover (classified as a 4x4).

Thanks
Mark

Quote from: HogansHeroes on 23 June 2022, 09:36:00 PMThe Swedish Type 66 Infantry Brigades used the Strv 74 for recon after 1970. Could the Strv 74 be added to the recon list for the Swedes (it is currently under armour)?

Also Swedish Type 66 Infantry Brigades sometimes used tractors and trailers to motorise. Could these be added to their transport options, mostly just for flavour? It could just be a slightly slower truck (maybe speed 15?).

You can easily convert a vehicle to Recce by adding 20pts. But we'll look to add the Strv 74 in the Recce section _ I will just need to check the service dates.

The tractors are an easy add - there are stats for these in the British Falkland list - but they are classified as 'Prime Movers' so can tow things but not act as transports - although if the Swedes had them towing large trailers they might be able to move INF: units as well - but they'd be classified as a VEH.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark. I am sure some of this will have been covered in previous posts and apologise if I am repeating anything unnecessarily, but could you clarify stats for on-table medium mortars and artillery.

In a previous post you said stats for 12cm/120mm mortars were AP 4/100 and AT 2/100 for British, Bundeswehr and Soviets. Maybe the same for other nations too. However in the PDFs medium mortar ranges and attacks seem to vary considerably e.g. Brit 81mm/Bundeswehr 8cm AP 3/120 AT 1/120*, Soviet 82mn AP 3/120 AT blank, 82mm BTR-152 AP 3/120 AT 2/100* and 82mm Vasilek AP 6/200 AT2/100*. What is the correct range and attacks for these classes of mortar?

For on-table artillery (and I assume this refers to towed and SP artillery, not mortars) the rules state that the attacks listed in the table on p52 should be used and not the ones in the army lists. Almost all the on-table artillery attacks for British, Bundeswehr and Soviets are therefore incorrect e.g. British 155mm/Soviet 152mm/Bundeswehr 15.5cm need to be changed from 4/100 to 5/100H and British 105mm/Soviet 122mm change from 3/100 to 4/100H. However the off table equivalents remain 4 and 3 hits respectively. To avoid any confusion can you please confirm if the table on p52 should take precedence over all on-table artillery stats shown in army lists, without exception, or advise otherwise.

Rgds

Chris

Quote from: Superscribe on 25 June 2022, 10:01:01 PMHi Mark. I am sure some of this will have been covered in previous posts and apologise if I am repeating anything unnecessarily, but could you clarify stats for on-table medium mortars and artillery.

In a previous post you said stats for 12cm/120mm mortars were AP 4/100 and AT 2/100 for British, Bundeswehr and Soviets. Maybe the same for other nations too. However in the PDFs medium mortar ranges and attacks seem to vary considerably e.g. Brit 81mm/Bundeswehr 8cm AP 3/120 AT 1/120*, Soviet 82mn AP 3/120 AT blank, 82mm BTR-152 AP 3/120 AT 2/100* and 82mm Vasilek AP 6/200 AT2/100*. What is the correct range and attacks for these classes of mortar?

For on-table artillery (and I assume this refers to towed and SP artillery, not mortars) the rules state that the attacks listed in the table on p52 should be used and not the ones in the army lists. Almost all the on-table artillery attacks for British, Bundeswehr and Soviets are therefore incorrect e.g. British 155mm/Soviet 152mm/Bundeswehr 15.5cm need to be changed from 4/100 to 5/100H and British 105mm/Soviet 122mm change from 3/100 to 4/100H. However the off table equivalents remain 4 and 3 hits respectively. To avoid any confusion can you please confirm if the table on p52 should take precedence over all on-table artillery stats shown in army lists, without exception, or advise otherwise.

Rgds

Chris

Not at all Chris - yes - all noted and all due to be picked up in the big errata correction - the statement about Artillery only really applies to guns (which tend to have the same AP/AT stats & ranges on-table) - but I agree it is confusing. Generally, the army list stats will 'trump' the general stats in the book, which are designed as a catch-all.
I'll look at the stats for the 81mm mortars - we will have to attempt to accommodate 61mm, 100-107mm, 120mm and 155mm+ mortars, so you might find that some of the 'granularity' you might be looking for disappears. But I'll do my best to accommodate that.
Cheers
Mark

Cheers
Mark

Quote from: Big Insect on 25 June 2022, 08:49:42 PMI'm not sure that the differences between the COMBAT, MOBAT, WOMBAT are significant enough to differentiate them in the lists, but I will check.

If the Landrover variants could be fired whilst mounted in the vehicle, then that is an omission (which can be corrected) but if they are just transported in the Landrovers, then that option is covered by having the 4x4s in the Transport section. As the COMBAT, MOBAT, WOMBAT are all classified as INF:AT they can be carried by the Landrover (classified as a 4x4).

Thanks
Mark

Entire series - BAT - with gunsheild, only towed
MOBAT - sheild removed - often towed but fits in back of a LWB landrover - can be fired when Portee.Optical sights. May be fitted to 432's

Wombat - does not stand for anything, fitted with 0.5" Ranging gun so longer effective range. Never towed and can fire from Landrover or 432

CONBAT - moderenised MOBAT fited with L4 LMG as ranging gun. Can't think of any improvement it made except higher rate of fire. 

Thanks Ian

No problem - CONBAT is TA only.

Incedentally you may find TA compoanies consisting entirly of MILAN platoons, Mortar Platoons and SFMG platoons. Those are composites for training purposes and belong to several battalions.

Quote from: Big Insect on 26 June 2022, 07:47:00 AMNot at all Chris - yes - all noted and all due to be picked up in the big errata correction - the statement about Artillery only really applies to guns (which tend to have the same AP/AT stats & ranges on-table) - but I agree it is confusing. Generally, the army list stats will 'trump' the general stats in the book, which are designed as a catch-all.
I'll look at the stats for the 81mm mortars - we will have to attempt to accommodate 61mm, 100-107mm, 120mm and 155mm+ mortars, so you might find that some of the 'granularity' you might be looking for disappears. But I'll do my best to accommodate that.
Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark
So, based on what you have said we will continue to use the stats for on-table arty and mortars as listed in their army lists (ignoring table on p52) and look forward to the detailed errata when it comes out in due course. 

Could you just clarify stats for Brit 81mm mortars as they are shown as AP 3/120 and AT 1/120* compared to shorter range of 4.2"/12cm/120mm mortars with AP 4/100 and AT 2/100. Should medium mortars have longer/equal/shorter range than the heavy mortars?

Ta

Chris

Real world ranges : 81mm L16 - 5650m, 120mm M39/43 5.7 km. The 120mm bomb is roughly 4 times that of the 81mm one. ROF - 81 sustained 4-8 rnds min, 120 2 rnds min.

Hi Mark. This may have already been posted, but Munitions are missing from notes column for all Btitish and Bundeswehr aircraft. I am sure this will get picked up in the errata. Chris

Thanks Chris - we will pick that up. 

Now I have the CWCII rulebook, I'm just playing catch up on all the trheads that have been generated. I'm glad to see under the Optional Rules the Static Hits option. We have used this for years in our BKCII games and find, for us, it makes for a better game.

One that that irked us with CWCI with hits coming off both sides at the end of the Turn, was that it was often really hard to KO anything during a game. As an example, in a campaign lasting  4-5 games, my British lost only one Chieftain tank (without Still brew) throughout. It didn't feel right to us. Some lucky die rolls here and there might have helped, but not to the extent of them lasting for so long.

So I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out using the Static Hits option with the new rules. First I just need to sort out my OOB and then place some orders

Quote from: Steve J on 02 July 2022, 05:56:54 PMNow I have the CWCII rulebook, I'm just playing catch up on all the trheads that have been generated. I'm glad to see under the Optional Rules the Static Hits option. We have used this for years in our BKCII games and find, for us, it makes for a better game.

One that that irked us with CWCI with hits coming off both sides at the end of the Turn, was that it was often really hard to KO anything during a game. As an example, in a campaign lasting  4-5 games, my British lost only one Chieftain tank (without Still brew) throughout. It didn't feel right to us. Some lucky die rolls here and there might have helped, but not to the extent of them lasting for so long.

So I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out using the Static Hits option with the new rules. First I just need to sort out my OOB and then place some orders

Hi Steve
We played a big CWC-II game up at 'The Unit' last weekend (or was it the weekend before) and I lost a load of armour, including a couple of Dutch Leopard 2s - to massed T62 fire and also to some long-distance ATGW shooting. We were playing the 'Hits come Off' rule - so I suspect if you are playing 'Hits Stay On' you'll see a lot more damage.
I 'KO'd' a number of Soviet MBTs with massed artillery shooting but my Leopards were part of an armoured recon formation - so were out and about in singles - so probably not as deadly as a proper battalion would have been.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on.
Cheers
Mark

But were also playing the '2 hits = suppressed' optional rule for off-table Artillery & Air.

Hi Mark. p93 has special ability Generate Smoke but I cant seem to find it listed in any Army List. I assume this maybe because all AFVs can use it (p15).

However does this not apply to those armoured transports and on table SP artillery that have smoke dischargers fitted, such as FV432s and the Abbott SP gun? Can you update army lists to show which vehicles can generate smoke.

Ta

Chris

QuoteHi Mark. p93 has special ability Generate Smoke but I cant seem to find it listed in any Army List. I assume this maybe because all AFVs can use it (p15).

However does this not apply to those armoured transports and on table SP artillery that have smoke dischargers fitted, such as FV432s and the Abbott SP gun? Can you update army lists to show which vehicles can generate smoke.

Ta

Chris

To be honest Chris - that is a major job (huge piece of research) - which is why I generally went with the view that players do need to use their own research and discretion on that matter. It is a 'free' ability - and my view is that we are covering so broad a range of vehicles and time period that I hadn't the time/energy to invest in it (at present).

The challenge is not as simple as: "does this vehicle have smoke dispensers or not?", because a lot of Soviet/Communist built vehicles had the inherent ability to create a dirty black/oily smoke screen, without the need for dispensers. e.g. from the T54 onwards (maybe earlier - with upgraded T34/85s or SU-100s etc),T-54/T-55, T-62, T72, T80 etc, Communist tanks had ability to create a smoke screen by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust system. This was copied by the Chinese, Yugoslavians, North Koreans and Vietnamese in their various 'lookilikey' AFVs as well.

Also - some vehicles had detachable smoke dispensers, so a South African Ratel IFV - could have 2x2 80mm smoke grenade dispensers attached - but often, as it was not fighting other AFV's (for most of the time) - these were not attached. But they could be attached when necessary.

As a general rule - I'd suggest that all AFVs (& that includes MBTs, IFVs, APCs and even Armoured Cars and on table armoured SP Artillery - but not half-tracks for some odd reason) in this era would normally have some sort of fixed array smoke dispensers/launchers, or be able to use the fuel-injection smoke system.

Some very early tanks that 'carried-over' from WWII (or earlier) - such as the T-26's used by Spain up to the 1950s for example - might be an exception. But Shermans - for example do have the ability to add dispensers, if required. But the lists are not really designed to be a totally comprehensive list of all vehicles and all  equipment carried. They cannot be - or they will just become far to unwieldy.

Vehicles such as Trucks and 4x4s (pre.1990) don't generally have smoke generation capabilities (although some HMMWV's can).
Motorcycles, Mules, Bicycles don't either.
Neither do a lot of Amphibious transport vehicles - such as DUKWs - although the LVT family does.
Early US armoured car variants (Whites and Greyhounds) don't generally appear have smoke dispenser, but from the Ferret onwards UK ones do.
M24 Chaffee's had a turret mounted 81mm smoke mortar during WWII, that some operators removed in post war service (like the US) whilst other retained it (but never used it).

So, I suspect that your going to need to come to a broad agreement amongst your playing group on this matter - but the general rule (particularly if you are playing c.1980s Cold War gone Hot European games) is that this ability/characteristic applies to: AFV (including all MBTs), AC, IFV, APC designated units (whether they are Armour, Transport or Recce), on-table armoured SP guns - but not to half-tracks.
And that is probably the best way to apply this, broadly.

Long answer to a short question, but I hope it helps.
Thanks
Mark
Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark. As always a very interesting and in-depth reply. Thankyou.

Yep quite a complex subject. I agree your reasoning for 1980s games and smoke capabilities of the various armoured vehicle types. Perhaps the answer is to amend the rule on p15 to something along the lines of what you said above "this ability/ characteristic applies to: AFV (including all MBTs), AC, IFV, APC designated units (whether they are Armour, Transport or Recce), on-table armoured SP guns - but not to half-tracks"

Regards

Chris

A good call Chris ... some units like Soviet bridging units based on the T55 or T62 core chasses may/may not also have had the fuel injection smoke-screen capability (likewise SPAAGs like the various ZSUs etc) as they were all based on an MBT tank chassis - but again we don't appear to know (for certain) if they used the injection capability or not.

Cheers
Mark