Desecration or Archeology- Discuss

Started by Orcs, 28 June 2021, 10:28:40 PM

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Ithoriel

On the contrary, I think modern re-creations of historical artefacts, beasts and people can have far more impact then a few bones, some tatty bits of cloth and a few feathers that have lost their original lustre. A decent mannequin of a Neanderthal will mean more to the average member of the public than any number of bone fragments. I'm sure my kids learned far more about the Romans from playing Caesar on the PC than they did from traipsing round the Chambers Street museum on wet Saturday afternoons.

I remember visiting the site of Gournia on Crete. A small, Late Bronze Age village of some fifty structures, mostly houses but with a small palace too. I was instantly transported to a settlement of boxy, whitewashed houses separated by narrow alleys, alive with children running through the alleyways, women working in their houses, merchants and farmers selling their wares in the central court. My wife looked around and said,"Oh! Another pile of rocks!" I suspect most people need  something to fill in the gaps in their knowledge rto allow them to make sense of what they are looking at.

By all means have some original finds to show the state of things when they come out of the ground but by and large lets present the historical past as peopled by normal human beings largely living ordinary lives, much like ourselves despite their, to our way of thinking, often bizarre beliefs and funny clothes.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Big Insect

30 June 2021, 07:24:38 AM #16 Last Edit: 30 June 2021, 07:40:47 AM by Big Insect
Isn't it more about the fact that human bodies - for that is what they are - deserve respect (not to be gawped at).
Whether you believe in an afterlife or not, whether their culture or society is still active or not, these 'artefacts' were once real live living loving human beings and how we honour/handle their remains deserves respect and dignity. It also reflects on our own society and how we treat the living.

Putting them on 'display' to the general public is surely as callous and unthinking as what happened with samples from dead babies and foetuses being stored (without permission) by Bristol Children's Hospital.

The Auschwitz observation is an interesting one - I have not been, but I have visited the Killing Fields in Cambodia and it is horrific.
However, in both instances the people unto whom these terrible crimes were perpetrated have voluntarily chosen to allow these sites to be visited, to ensure that the memory of the terrible crime is not forgotten. But what I would say about the Killing Fields is that after a while you do become numb to the piles of sculls and bones. What is much more meaningful in many ways are the numerous lines of flowering bulbs, originally planted along pathways, that once led to the houses/homes in the many destroyed village communities - where there are no more villages as their residents were forcibly deported and killed and the villages have decayed back into the jungle.

On the shrunken heads and scalps point - this again is interesting. Just because a society has a belief that taking a human trophy and keeping it gives an enemy honour or bestows some sort of honour on the taker of the trophy, does not in a modern world mean it should be acceptable. This is where I think political correctness descends into madness and lunacy!
For a long time this was the argument about allowing the practice of female genital mutilation to continue - it was 'tradition'.

My own - strongly held view - is that there can be no justification for the public display of human bodies or body parts - not for educational purposes, not for religious or cultural purposes and not even for scientific purposes. If we need to keep a human body or body part (no matter how old) to help us with research that will help future generations, then it should be kept in dignity and away from lascivious viewing.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

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Heedless Horseman

30 June 2021, 10:28:05 AM #17 Last Edit: 30 June 2021, 10:43:56 AM by Heedless Horseman
Ithoriel and Big Insect: Very valid points of view.
Ithoriel:
A LOT depends on prior knowledge... kids can interact with animatronic Dinosaurs much more that the old 'Museum' skeletons. And a 'pile of rocks' is just that... until you 'people' it...but just HOW would some of the more Horrific aspects of 'normal human beings' be recreated to provide knowledge, rather than 'Drama'? Re-enactors can show much of normal life.  But, Death? Just doesn't work.
When I was a kid, there was a 'streetside' display of a 'ancient burial' by Hancocks Museum, Newcastle. It 'May' have been real or a replca skeleton... don't know... gone now... but it brought home the idea that people 'Died' and were buried ... LONG ago.
Big Insect:
Very big thanks for your observation on the flowers along 'The Killing Fields'. There is still some hope for Humanity after barbarism. But how many, NOW, in the UK, see the displays of 'artificial' Poppies'... and REALLY THINK of what was beneath 'Flanders fields'? Rather than 'Oh they're at it again...back to the mobile'. If 'the Dead' could bequeath 'something' to the living, it would be:'This Will Be YOU someday... I'm NOT a MEME so respect me... and try not to end up like me too early'. Rather think they would go along with that, even if it meant 'being on show'.
The piles of Skulls in Cambodia might become 'numbing'... that can be 'what happens'.. and is why they are there.. 'otherwise normal people' just 'got numb' to killing for a 'cause'.
The 'political correctness' and modern views on 'acceptability' is VERY valid... but does NOT mean that it was not 'acceptable' to those of THAT time. Times Change... and this has to be remembered... those times WERE 'modern' to those there then... even with 'Traditional' concepts. Some things are FOUL... to US, now, and need to be stamped out.. but that is OUR view.. we just have to accept that we must, rightly, impose OUR belief on others. But, remember that other societies throughout History, felt just the same... and are now, whether rightly or wrongly... regarded as 'barbaric... by their counterparts or 'History'.
Display...we Differ. but agree on some dignity and not 'shock/Horror'...as an'attraction'... but to provoke 'thought'.

Sorry if MY views on 'Humanity' are a bit 'jaded'... but for every step 'forward'... from 'someone's point of view'... 'someone else, somewhere, sometime'... will take a step 'back'...and the Dance goes On...
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

Heedless Horseman

30 June 2021, 12:59:33 PM #18 Last Edit: 30 June 2021, 01:14:12 PM by Heedless Horseman
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 29 June 2021, 11:00:59 AM

As a child, I picked up some small 'bits' of equipment... parachute silk, flack vest scales, oxygen tubing... from a B17 crash site on Cheviot. The fatalities were recovered after the crash, though.

At least, so I thought. Apparently the unditched bomb load went off after the SURVIVORS were safe. No mention of what happened to the two airmen killed in the crash.

Was a very Big Hole and well dug over / scavenged by 1970s. Think we were near rear end, though and fatalities were in the nose.

If the  Dead were still there, somewhere... So Sorry. No disrespect intended. RIP lads.
https://acia.co.uk/1944/12/16/b17-44-6504/
http://www.wtdwhd.co.uk/Braydon%20Crag.html
http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/15640

(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

Ithoriel

Perhaps I know an unusual slice of the young but those I know are all too aware of the horrors of war, ethnic cleansing, extermination camps and the like because it has been the leitmotif of the news in their lifetime.

I don't see that the display of human remains will stop the slow erosion of the outrage they feel at "Man's inhumanity to man." As with Big Insect's piles of skulls, slowly but surely  it just becomes what happens.

I'm fine with proper scientific research and sensible display of artefacts, but so, so much less happy with the display of human remains as the modern equivalent of the Victorian freak-show.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

steve_holmes_11

A couple of tangents:

The first on dead bodies, and in this case victims of conflict.

My Dutch pal Eric had a great interest in WW2 history, and when I knew him has started visiting WW2 battle sites with a muntinational group of enthusiasts.
It was mostly detector and digging work, retrieving small artifacts.
A mess tin here, a dressing case there.
Any sign or ammo or human remains and the authorities were called and local legal process swung into action.

Eric's interest grew and he "adopted" the US 101st infantry (Ciould be wrong here), getting good at identifying their kit.
He moved on to contact several surviving members, and his interviews with them can be found online with a bit of searching.
Several finds which bore identity numbers were sent to the former "owner" (Real owner probably Uncle Sam), and brought great pride to an old soldier.
Lately he has been assisting families fill in the military service part of their stories for funeral orations - because that generation are well into their 90s now.

With the decline in personal contact, Eric has moved back to the digging, but into an elite group.
These are concenrned with locating and identifying the last "missing in action" bodies from the Western Front.
They continue to work closely with local law enforcement, and to-date Eric has worked just "Easy" cases cetred around aircraft crash sites.
Any finds are passed through local legal system, and usually returned to their country of origin for appropriate burial (usuallky in the national equivalent of our War Graves commission).

Eric's story is worthwhile because it illustrates that there's more beyond scrap-metal bandits out there.


The other is more about recent archeology.
There are many ways to present a site.
We'll probably be most familiar with places like York or St Albans (If English they seem like mandatory school trips).
Others may have visited major international sites, or seen them on television.

Presentation has advanced beyond the "Piles of stones" of old.
Both Greece (Knossos) and Turkey (Ephesus) have locations where impressive buildings have been reconstructed to illustrate their original look.
This was controversial at the time.
I think it helpful for the casual observer, and cannot see much detriment if the reconstruction is done carefuly and designed to last.

More recently I visited a site in Greece that had what I can only describe as big transparencies.
Stood in the correct location, the knee high stone walls aligned with an artist's impression of the complete building.
This was a surprisingly effective way to bring old ruins alive.
I can imagine it being improved with augmented reality techniques (point your phone camera at the place and see an "as it was" overlay (like Pokemon Go).

The nice thing about this is minimum disruption to the real stuff, yet you still get the lovely pictures.


Heedless Horseman

Some good points there, Steve. Yes, Organisations will treat remains with respect. Perhaps, more needs to be 'seen' by the public and the young, to 'educate' them... re my comment on the B17 site.   :(
I am not so keen on Reconstruction of existing ruins. An 'off site' 'New Build'... yes... but not always applicable. Perhaps the new ideas on presentation will  will be a better alternative. Laser mapping and CGI could definitely make virtual 'reconstructions' more accessible to the (now ageing!) mobile / tablet generation!

Again, away from the Human Remains side of the topic...
As a kid, late 60s / 70s in NE England, 'spotting' the WW2 'Pill Boxes' or 'tank traps' dotted around, was a highlight of car trips. Over the years, several of these 'landmarks' were removed... which always created a sense of 'loss'.
In recent decades, there has been more realisation that such structures are also part of Our History... with televised 'archaeology' shows helping greatly. Demolition still happens, though. Local 'Butts' have gone from a rifle range... as have some old 'huts' from disused airfield sites. Probably for safety concerns... but... sad to see.
I can only hope that more consideration is given to the various WW2 constructions that still remain.
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)