The other fact that one has to consider is that making Gestapo figures these days may be considered a bit tasteless.

Quote from: fsn on 06 June 2020, 10:33:30 PM
The other fact that one has to consider is that making Gestapo figures these days may be considered a bit tasteless.

Why? They can get shot!  

Actually...hmm, maybe should not comment. in case it opens a Bucket of worms, BUT. Hopefully, this ain't TMP! I, personally am absolutely horrified at the growing trend to 'change history' to conform to a particular point of view. In my youth, George Orwell's society could never happen...but it IS...not so much by 'Big Brother', but by mob 'values'!  

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 07 June 2020, 03:04:43 AM
Why? They can get shot! 

Actually...hmm, maybe should not comment. in case it opens a Bucket of worms, BUT. Hopefully, this ain't TMP! I, personally am absolutely horrified at the growing trend to 'change history' to conform to a particular point of view. In my youth, George Orwell's society could never happen...but it IS...not so much by 'Big Brother', but by mob 'values'! 

Just call them men in trench coats and brimmed hats.

Quote from: fsn on 06 June 2020, 10:33:30 PM
The other fact that one has to consider is that making Gestapo figures these days may be considered a bit tasteless.

Nobby You could argue that all "baddies" are to some extent tasteless.  That does not stop popular culture sending them up - the Indiana Jones movies, the Dark Lord in Lord of the Rings, present day Islamic terrorists could be "tasteless" subject matter to their victim's families.  Perhaps that's why I couched the request as caricature based on Herr Flick? 

The Gestapo were the a monolithic umbrella for German military intelligence. It absorbed ALL the old Weimar Republic agencies.  The intelligence investigation community was never purged. Historians like Gellatley argue that the majority of these police were not Nazis.  Their professionalism was valued above their politics.  

We forget that the Nazis Party came to power, not by a military coup or putsch. They were  elected via the ballot box to a 43% vote, which with a coalition with the DNVP allowed Hitler to pass democratically, The Enabling Act.   Policemen serve the Government, and the Nazis reorganised then into the Gestapo.

But lets be brutally honest. No German military organisation is WW2 is free from the charge of committing atrocity or genocide.  The rendition of a clean Wehrmacht is a myth.   Does that not prompt the question that any portrayal of WW2 German forces is tasteless?  


In my early tours of West Germany,  there were a few old and bold officers in the BND who had a linage that stretched back to service in the Gehlen Org and the Gestapo.

Quote from: Sunray on 07 June 2020, 09:41:08 AM
Nobby You could argue that all "baddies" are to some extent tasteless.

But lets be brutally honest. No German military organisation is WW2 is free from the charge of committing atrocity or genocide.

Me coming from an "Axis" aligned country that managed to get out of the war with relative ease and with some luck involved.

I would consider russians "baddies" and find them tasteless.

Also no military organisation in ww2 is free of committing war crimes. Of course not to the extent of the extermination war conducted on the eastern front.
 

Quote from: Noktu on 08 June 2020, 08:34:19 AM
Me coming from an "Axis" aligned country that managed to get out of the war with relative ease and with some luck involved.

I would consider russians "baddies" and find them tasteless.

Also no military organisation in ww2 is free of committing war crimes. Of course not to the extent of the extermination war conducted on the eastern front.
 

It is possible to argue in Finland's case that "your enemy's enemy became your friend" .  I like your phrase "relative ease and some luck" which covers complicated history of  the Lapin Sota, the humiliating  years of suomettuminen and the corollaries of the Paasikiwi policies.
Finland was between a rock and a hard place. As a nation she had to made tough choices - and survived.  No western nation was going to stand up the Soviet Union on Finland's behalf. 

One of the positives of our hobby is that the majority of us know enough history to understand that the 'goodies v baddies' view of any conflict is ... somewhat simplistic

Thanks Sunray for helping me learn a little more history

Quote from: Sunray on 08 June 2020, 09:43:08 AM
It is possible to argue in Finland's case that "your enemy's enemy became your friend" .  I like your phrase "relative ease and some luck" which covers complicated history of  the Lapin Sota, the humiliating  years of suomettuminen and the corollaries of the Paasikiwi policies.
Finland was between a rock and a hard place. As a nation she had to made tough choices - and survived.  No western nation was going to stand up the Soviet Union on Finland's behalf. 

I do believe however that the Continuation War coordinated with the German invasion of Russia was a calculated revenge war on our behalf in order to form a Greater Finland. Compelled by the early german victories I guess it seemed like a no brainer for us to join the offensive.

There is some deep rooted gratitude here for the germans as without them feeding and arming us, the soviet union would have probably swallowed us whole.

In the far north where the Lapland War took place you will find people with differing opinions as the germans destroyed the infrastructure in order to halt a possible russian advance through the north.

A very interesting subject that would probably be better off discussed elsewhere.

I'm sorry for this, and maybe put my point badly.

In these sensitive times the word "Gestapo" is particularly toxic within the wider public. I suspect a range of Kempeitai would go unnoticed by the Great British public. whereas Gestapo figures may be viewed a little less charitably.   

It is, as the say "the optics".




P.S. Finland forever!

Quote from: fsn on 08 June 2020, 10:46:44 AM
I'm sorry for this, and maybe put my point badly.

In these sensitive times the word "Gestapo" is particularly toxic within the wider public. I suspect a range of Kempeitai would go unnoticed by the Great British public. whereas Gestapo figures may be viewed a little less charitably.   

It is, as the say "the optics".


P.S. Finland forever!

Well argued Nobby !  I totally get it.  Even if Leon wanted to style the sculpts Indian Jones adventure figures-  a bit like Mark Copplestone does in 28mm?

Now we have a consensus on what not to call them, we still have to sell the request to the Dark Lord!

Lets go with New York gangsters sporting Maschinenpistole 40s!

Quote from: Noktu on 08 June 2020, 01:41:46 PM
Lets go with New York gangsters sporting Maschinenpistole 40s!

That was my argument 3 years ago.  Not enough votes.  So I reinvented my long coat and broad brimmed fedora as Gestapo to piggyback on WW2 demand.

In desperation I converted a Minifigs civilian and armed him with a pistol - I call the character Harry Palmer - budget secret agent

Re-enactment groups are very sensitive about this - it does invite the question "Why are you being Nazis and not Us?"

Quote from: paulr on 08 June 2020, 09:54:18 AM
One of the positives of our hobby is that the majority of us know enough history to understand that the 'goodies v baddies' view of any conflict is ... somewhat simplistic :-

Thanks Sunray for helping me learn a little more history

Its a fair trade Paul, for the nuggets I pick up in terms of painting tips and sourcing 10mm kit.  Its what makes the forum alive.

I can remember a few years ago Salute featured a large WWII reenactment group that took up a large portion of the middle of the hall. Unfortunately a portion chose to wear uniforms of the SS, the Gestapo and some had their children in uniforms of the Hitler Youth. Whilst I will never knowingly deny history, there are some things that should never be glorified.
I understand that the management of Salute did the honorable thing.

On the other hand. Is it hypocritical for me to laugh when the actor Richard Gibson picks up the telephone and barks, "Flick, The Gestapo" and after a shocked pause replies"No. I said Flick, The Gestapo.