I had a quick search of "napoleonic base" to go through the previous debates on basing but have only seen reference to french and russian .  It seems most people go for a standard base frontage like 30mm or 40mm (or inches if US) so they can switch around rulesets .
  many of which claim to be flexible on basing "providing both sides use the same" type statement.  BUT there are rule sets e.g. Fire and fury/Age of eagles and older ones based on the "bottom up" 1 model is x men in y ranks approach that have two line infantry like the british on a different frontage to the three line (e.g. French) and remind us that the scale correct approach would be a single rank of minis on a base. 

So while I salivate over my new Talavera/Albuera type british/portguese/Spanish army eventually marching on to the tabletop,  can I please ask if anyone else has/is thinking about basing their two line British infantry on a different front base  to other nations?  or just have fewer figures per base and more bases in a British unit?   Or just go with what looks nice and allow for the difference with modifiers in your ruleset of the moment. Given the endless parade of new rule sets,  the latter is probably more future proof.  Presumably this problem goes away for those using the larger scale rule sets like Blucher as it will be the footprint of parts of an army be they "brigades" or "divisions" that determines base sizes and at that level the nations might be more similar.   

We play Napoleonics in 1:72 (20mm) with slightly adapted 'Brigades and Batteries' rules and we work with a different frontage for those fighting in the two-rank system (British, Dutch, Württembergers in 1813 etc.). Because all units are based in a single rank the differece is made in frontage. Troops that fight in three ranks get a 1cm frontage per figure; troops that fight in two ranks get 1,5cm frontage per figure. Works perfectly with the B&B rules.

Best regards,
Rob

Am probably going to base my Brits & Portuguese the same way as my others, that is 8 figures in 2 ranks on a 30x 15mm base, the firing rules already have a bonus for two deep line, representing the extra men firing relative to the opposition.

I know it's not quite right frontage wise but it keeps it simple. As British battalions are on average bigger than French ones anyway (in Spain), it'll still look the part.

Mark

Quote from: sultanbev on 11 May 2020, 11:55:24 AM
Am probably going to base my Brits & Portuguese the same way as my others, that is 8 figures in 2 ranks on a 30x 15mm base,

That seems a lot of figures on a small base - I normally find 8 figures on a 40x20mm is a good fit, possibly 10 if they are squeezed together.

I'm basing at 1:10 for 10mm, compared to 1:20 for my 15mm (which are gradually being sold). The frontage of the bases with that figure ratio is about right for our rules.

One day I'll put some photos up!

Mark

I suppose my thoughts were more around would the figures physically fit, rather than what they are representing. I'm becoming more in favour of slightly fewer figures on a base, as you get more units finished in a given period of time - but then I flip-flop to wanting dense looking units.

They just about fit  The Revolutionary Wars figures seem a smidgeon bigger but I managed it. Let me see if I can do a photo...

This is the Austrian 2nd Regiment from the 1812 Auxiliary Corps:
10mm Austrian 2nd Reg 1812 003 by Mark Bevis, on Flickr

Based at 1:10, this regiment was 1820 men strong in 2 battalions in June 1812 as it entered Russia.
10mm Austrian 2nd Reg 1812 002 by Mark Bevis, on Flickr

I take a similar view and prefer units to look 'right' rather than anything else.  I also use a 1:10 ratio, and historical OBs which means that units vary in size,   Infantry bases are really no more than 'counters' and  represent approximately 90 to 100 men.  I find that if I allow approximately 7mm per 'file', I can fit 9 figures in 3 ranks on a base of approximately 21mm x 30mm, or 10 figures in 2 ranks on a base approximately 35mm x 30mm.  A depth of 30mm is sufficient for figures and a title strip.  

Quote from: sultanbev on 11 May 2020, 02:12:35 PM
Based at 1:10, this regiment was 1820 men strong in 2 battalions in June 1812 as it entered Russia.
10mm Austrian 2nd Reg 1812 002 by Mark Bevis, on Flickr

They do look the part.  1:10 is perfect for 10mm. 

Impressive looking units Mark! Really shows how long a deployed unit was - something that is rarely represented well in wargames - which tend to be too narrow and too deep!

That is certainly a lot of figures to paint for a unit, though. And for a game, I suppose you need a big table, and some patience to move all the stands!

 

What Fred sed

And their current value is probably half that of the toilet roll ostentatiously  displayed beneath them!

"Really shows how long a deployed unit was - something that is rarely represented well in wargames - which tend to be too narrow and too deep!"

Yes, I've recently thought that, most wargames rules just base Napoleonics all wrong. If you look on contemporary maps, battalions are marked as long thin lines. If you do the maths, a  700 man battalion in 3-deep line covers 500' x 9'. So our battalions should look like long thin lines.

The base frontages I use are the same as our 15mm, just twice as many figures. Because we use a Fire & Fury type system, it's the number of stands that count. One of those bases is 2 stands, or 80 men. I could actually use these units against our 15mm ones, they would fit in just the same area as each other, and take just as long or not to move.

The frontage is about right for our groundscale, although the depth is still three times what it should be. So we've been doing this for 15 years now. I do have a 10'x 5' table, and tens of thousands of 15mm figures, that are all going on ebay to pay for this 10mm caper.

What threw me though, apart from the niceness of 10mm, is that old thing, scale creep - the Lancashire Games figures that I used a lot of for example, are now 18mm, and the new figures just look enormous next to my older 15mm. And I couldn't get the ranges I wanted elsewhere. So I'm switching to 10mm, because with these none-kickstarters and a pro-active manufacturer, there is more chance I'll get the armies I want, all in the same style and size!

I've seen a few displays at museums which attempt to do a battalion (or similar formation) at 1:1 model ratio, and presumably at the correct ground scale, and they are always very very wide, and pretty shallow.

I think a wargames unit being a little deeper is fine, as there would be officers etc deployed behind the main firing line - and battalions wouldn't be deployed that close to each other. But the sheer length is significant - the unit is probably as wide as a musket shot!

Big effort to switch armies that size to a new scale - but you hardly need telling how good Pendraken is!

Its generally accepted base depths bear no relation to actual unit depths, because its a gaming piece. On the measurements you gave a unit of 12 40mm bases would be 9mm deep.

What the deep base does is force gamers to do something they wouldn't voluntarily, that is space their lines. There could be 100-400 paces between lines. You can think of the back ¾ of the base as the bit the following colonel knows not to get into.

my 6mm are two ranks of six on 30x25mm i can use them as a regiment, a two stand a compnay regiment, add a extra command and i then say 10 stands are a brigade.

many thanks for all your thoughts.  After that and perusing endless numbers of rulesets, I have decided (well maybe) to go with 4 40*20 bases to a standard battalion with an additional base for the light company out skirmishing. 5 figs on a base single rank with command figures+scenics/casualties bulking out the rear.  So its somewhere in the 1:20-1:30 range. 2 figs/company.   It will play any "4 base unit" or "fixed frontage" rules and could be easily faked into 40*30s for rulesets that insist on depth. There shouldnt be any overhanging muskets or bayonets to get in the way.  (Yes I did make that mistake with some older figures) .   I can add one or two further bases either for large battalions or any rules where a brit battalion in line simply must be 50% longer than a French one of the same strength.  Two bases could be removed for the 1:50 upwards brigade level games as they often seem to have a 3" frontage so you would end up with a typical 6 base (3 battalions each 2 bases) brigade. I am loosely aiming at an Albuera army so if I start by building only the first battalion in each brigade as 5 base +command base+skirmish as a standard , I can get playing either battalion (4 or 6 base) or brigade level (6 base) games fairly quickly. (just have to avoid those of you who can spot different facing colours from 3 ft away),

4 base standard will look something like the attached pic. 
So roll on Christmas!
Dave
Now I have to plan the Spanish!

Great looking units Sultanbev. 10mm big battalions always look impressive!

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