My post in the other thread would still apply unfortunately, as well as the other reasons above.  If you'd be happy to attach 100 pikes to figures then you're probably patient enought to clip 100 cast-on pikes off before attaching your own!  With open handed figures it forces that extra time/effort on everyone, many of whom don't want to be spending that time adding their own pikes.  As mentioned before though, we might try and lengthen them if we do some revamping.

Another factor is the domino effect, where if we do it on the ECW's, we'd then get asked about it on other ranges as well.

The pikemen in the LoA may well be an anomaly. The reason they were made open-handed is that that's how I like them. I hate the idea of the work to paint figures is ruined when pikes get bent. Everyone has a pretty firm preference on the pikes cast on/ open-handed, and that's mine. I see the merits of the other way as its less fiddly, but they don't outweigh the problems for me.
I sculpted that range because I wanted to build armies for the period (that hasn't worked out due to time constraints, but I am still happy with the decision).  For that reason the figures were sculpted and just presented to Pendraken without instruction from HQ. Honestly I never considered that there would be a prefered house style- which may be pikes cast on. So the range shouldn't be looked at as anything other than esoteric. Nearly all the stuff I do is not commissioned by Pendraken, so I pretty much have free rein creatively. For Phil its mostly different so he gets more specific instructions. And as he points out there's no sculpting difficulty in doing it either way (but not both as it doubles the cost). That said I think the open-handed way is not problem-free in terms of casting the hands, if I recall correctly.

I have with both the ECW and LOA ranges, so one with pikes and one without.

My opinion is that it was easier to add the pikes than cut away the moulded pikes then drill through the hands (which is what I did with my ECW figures).  My one criticism of the 'open-handed' figures was that the bases were not quite big enough to take the base of the pike and still have it in an upright position.

If you look at code LOA9 'Command, standing' the figures second and third from left both have their bases extended out to support the half-pike/standard pole, and a similar arrangement would be greatly helpful for the pikemen when the moulds come to be remade.

As an aside, whilst I use brass rod for my standard poles, I have used the stiff plastic bristles from a garden broom for the LOA pikes.  The bristles have a decent amount of spring, which prevents them bending, and are light, which helps with the gluing.  One broom will provide nearly enough pikes to do several armies of Alexander's Macedonians.

Surely we could have both? 

My preference is for open hands.

I understand Leon's dilemma and accept that his decision probably does play to the majority and thus makes economic sense.

What I strongly disagree with is the assertion that snipping cast pikes/spears off and drilling hands is comparable to adding steel/pins/nylon/etc to open hands. It isn't, it's far, far harder and much more time intensive and that's why all my pikes still have their [short] PD pikes despite the fact that I'd much rather have longer steel pins. I feel that choice is as much 'forced' upon me as adding pins would be 'forced' upon the other camp. I did have the choice not to buy PD figures though, so ultimately its on me not Leon 


EPM 06 - Prince Rupert's Foot - 00 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr

As I said above, early on I had remarked that thought it would be simple to "snip and replace". To repeat, I was wrong.  Zippee, among others, was right.

I want to use EC1a for Elizabethans with long pikes. I am still slowly working on replacing. Here is a set of experiments using different methods:

Clipping just above the hand is relatively easy but it must be done carefully and requires some file and sanding work to make flush.
Many experiment have shown that keeping the bottom portion of the pike makes the task simpler and provides better support for what comes next.

The brass upper portion of the pike must now be attached. I have tried a flush attachment (way too weak), cutting a notch in the hand (way too fiddly) and drilling a socket to receive  the upper pike.

Drilling is best (the two right most are done that way). I use a micro dremel and (counter-intuitively to me at least) higher speed gives way better tip control the lower speed. I secure the figure (wrapped in thin leather) in a heavy pipe wrench and then drill. It takes practice to hit the sweet spot in the hand.

The pike top is put in the socket with superglue gel. After a day I work a bit of epoxy glue around the join.

Others likely have more skill but it's hard for me to imagine (after actually doing it) the process to be quick or easy.
Maybe others have a better approach?

Welcome Arthur. 

there have been many threads about this and opinion seems evenly divided between those who want open handed pike men to allow pikes of a more realistic width, and those like myself who consider life too short to glue pikes onto 10mm figures.

I would never buy an army in 10mm (or 15mm for that matter)   that required pikes to be glues onto the figures

Hi Bill.

If I do anything similar to the job you're doing above, I tend to snip the pole of the pike away completely. (Top and bottom)

I use the smallest 'burr' I've got to make an indentation in the top of the hand, and then drill right thro' the hand, top to bottom.

The indentation gives a ready made 'guide' for the drill bit, which I find makes the drilling itself much easier.
If I need to....I'll use a pair of tiny pliers to carefully squeeze the fingers of the hand around the shaft of the pike....and then use the 'super glue'.
If I make a mess....I'll just re-do the fingers with greenstuff. (Fair enough...that only takes me a few seconds to do that, because I've had so much practice with the g/s)

Cheers - Phil

TBH 10mm and 6mm pikes far too fiddly to mess with, but 15mm and above my preference is for open hands, or, even better, hands prepared for drilling.

One thing I forgot to put in my reply above, was......

I tend to stick any 10mm model I'm working on, onto a wine cork (£3 for about 30, here in the UK.).....I use the 'wasted' green stuff that's already mixed....But gone 'past its best' for sculpting...To do this.

This might well be too much of a 'faff' if you're talking about doing a dozen or more.

Cheers - Phil

Quote from: Techno on 16 June 2019, 03:32:41 PM
. . . onto a wine cork (£3 for about 30, here in the UK.)

I get one for a tenner or so, but it comes with a bottle and some liquid attached.

Yessssh....(Hic)

But you use thoshe onesh from a bottle.....Only one end ish of any ushe.

Cheers - Phil

And i thought that the Welsh were all of the "Thou Shalt NOT !!!) Methodist persuasion - no alcohol, no sex, no fun 

Quote from: Leman on 13 June 2019, 02:43:08 PM
I have just binned a load of beautifully cast, but very wobbly, loose 15mm pikes and replaced with steel ones. The figures were cast open-handed and then supplied with soft metal pikes - pointless exercise.

Welcome to the forum. wherever possible I prefer open handed figures, and, in the bigger scales, hands that can be drilled so that steel pikes don't then fall off (Old Glory are good at that). Some companies do provide a choice and I for one don't much care for bendy pikes on the table. Same goes for lances and spears.

Venaxia Italian Wars are great models  with open hands but their supplied pikes are cast in very soft metal....but they do have a nice variety of pike heads

Has this man ever been to Wales? Does he still think all the Dutch wear clogs, the only thing Germans eat is sausages, and Italians can only talk by shouting? A real Johnson ally one suspects. This does not refer to Venexia models. (while you were typing.........)

Try replacing them with Donnington lances which are more robust and sold in weapon packs. In fact Donnington have all sorts of useful separate weapons and accessories.

Quote from: Orcs on 15 June 2019, 08:50:56 PM
Welcome Arthur. 

there have been many threads about this and opinion seems evenly divided between those who want open handed pike men to allow pikes of a more realistic width, and those like myself who consider life too short to glue pikes onto 10mm figures.

I would never buy an army in 10mm (or 15mm for that matter)   that required pikes to be glues onto the figures

And visa versa I would never buy an army with attached bendy too short pikes...

I am in the open hand/replacement pike camp.  I have no problem with pikemen supplied with pikes but I always remove the ridiculously over-scale 'telegraph poles' and replace them with .5mm brass wire, with the ends flattened.  They look much better, are more robust and do not suffer from 'noodling'.  It is hardly a challenge and done during cleaning and general preparation.