Quick query on initiating Smoke Special Ability during Opportunity Fire please (per p37)

Is it 'Smoke' Ability or 'Generate Smoke' Ability that can take place in Opportunity Fire please?
p37 Opp Fire rules say "Smoke"....
but
p79 Ability rules state that "Generate Smoke" can take place in the Opportunity Fire Phase - whilst "Smoke" does not mention this.
In addition - the non-Special-Ability for every AFV to Generate Smoke on itself (p15) mentions it can be used during Opportunity Fire.

If 'Smoke' ...Then does firing only take place at the end of the enemy unit Move? If before - the enemy unit would just carry on moving through the smoke ...and leave behind a unit-sized smoke screen. Or...would it be forced to stop it's move (unlikely)?

Many Thanks
Adam

How many hours a week of his 'real' spare time do you think Mark should spend answering your stream of questions?

If I were him, I would be sorry that I ever took this on!

The skill of having a very good eye for going through rules with a fine tooth comb is important, but one that is perhaps more usefully employed pre rather than post publication.

Trying to understand how to play the new version of the game - you?

No idea how much time Mark - or others have...probably some - not lots.
That said - i'm not a big poster on the forum - some even have 1000 posts or more!  

Answering these is not urgent - just helpful...and hopefully stop others stumbling with rules issues - like we are when playing.
Anything that then needs updating can then go into the Errata

Note - In the first month of release of BKCII - there were at least 100 questions on the forum.
Would think my 20 or so - and great queries from others in the first 2 months since release -  no biggee.

This query .....I would imagine would take 2 mins to resolve for example.

Pre-publication help - I would imagine there was plenty (I did of course offer) - and v happy if anyone else replies here to help clarify how the rules should work.

So - Thanks for the comment ......but back to the question - any idea yourself on this one Norm?
A

PS - I should think Mark would be v proud of his work here.
A few rule niggles to sort out (much just proof reading catches) ...but new concepts & overall updates are all very positive!

Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 04 June 2019, 07:06:08 AM

Any idea yourself on this one Norm?

Sorry, no, I have given up on reading the questions.

I don't the know the rules well enough to understand the difference between a 'good catch' that needs errata and then the 'also ran' stuff. I do however think that a battery of Q&A can be off putting to anyone sitting on the fence and wondering whether to buy or not. In this particular instance, that factor is more sensitive due to the history of BKC III and financially, BKC IV needs to work for Pendraken.

It is a public forum, so having had my say, I will not return to the subject and I do not have any particular angst with you personally.

I hope to get to play a bit more and get more familiar with the rules.
Norm.

Completely understand Norm -

My hope on getting questions in now is to -

(1) Help clarify where rules unclear and facilitate our own BKCIV games ..and
(2) Enable any Errata to be built at pace and aid others

Personally - as someone else said recently - I look for an active forum with any ruleset as a positive thing. Harder to work out problems on your own.

PS ...I would honestly say that this version is a good update on BKCII.

Now ......back to Opp Fire Smoke.....
 

Thanks Norm  

Sometimes AJ things will not be as specific as you might like them to be or we'd end up with a 1,000 page rules book and an example for every possible (& impossible) situation.

With regards to the specifics of your questions please see the example below - but also Smoke is a generic term - it applies to Smoke generated by a vehicle to hide itself, it applies to a Smoke round fired at a vehicle to impair its visibility but also applies to a Smoke screen fired by Off-table guns etc. NB: you could also in theory have smoke generated from a burning town, village, building or haystack (in a scenario). As Off table guns have neither Initiative fire or Opportunity fire your question below cannot apply to Smoke screens. Therefore we are only talking about Smoke ammunition fired at an enemy unit (although that might be by an on-table artillery unit using LoS to fire smoke), or Smoke Generated by a friendly unit to hide itself (& conceivably other units behind it as Smoke blocks LoS).

Tiger Hunt – June 6th, 1944 Scenario:

3 x M4 Sherman 75mm + 1 Sherman M4 105mm Firefly are crossing an open field, but at the far end is a hedge with a Panzer VI Tiger behind it!
The Sherman's have spotted the Tiger (as it shot at them and missed last turn) and have attempted to fire at it but failed their command roll. It is the end of the US players turn.

The Tiger is outside its Initiative range (and over half range) to the Shermans, so the German player opts for a Commanded fire order at one of the Sherman 75's and the player rolls high knocking out the target tank (for the benefit of any doubt the US player also rolled low on saves!).

The remaining 3 US tanks can now make an Opportunity action (see Page 37). The Firefly and one of the 75mm Shermans opts to fire at the Tiger, but as it is behind the hedge it is hard to hit. Again, the US player rolls low and the Tiger is unscathed. With the last remaining Sherman 75, the US player fires Smoke at the Tiger and is successful.

The Tiger is now Smoked so can no longer see the Shermans to shoot at them (Page 14 LoS). The German player has a choice – remain stationary and wait for the Smoke to disperse (as whilst the Tiger cannot see the Shermans, the Shermans cannot see to shoot at it either, as the Smoke will remain in-play through the US players next turn). Or advance through the hedge, leaving the Smoke cloud behind and try to move into under-half range to get a better chance of killing another Sherman. The German player opts for the aggressive action!

The German player passes his 2nd command roll and the Tiger crashes forward out of the Smoke, through the hedge and up the field but is still not with in-half-range of the US tanks. The German player now opts for a shoot order, targeting the Firefly (as it is the most dangerous opponent) but with this being the 3rd order and the command distance has now increased between the Tiger and the CO commanding it, the German player rolls high and fails his command roll.
The German players turn is over. (NB: the Smoke fired at the Tiger originally remains in place until the end of the next US players turn).

It is now the US players turn. The US tanks are not within Initiative range, so must shoot as a Commanded action. The US CO opts for all his tanks to fire at the Tiger (at once). The roll is successful, the Tiger is hit, but not destroyed and also unfortunately is not suppressed!
The Tiger now has an Opportunity action – the German player can opt to shoot at one of the US tanks or Generate Smoke (Page 15). The German player opts to generate Smoke as this protects the Tiger from further dangerous shooting, as he has taken Hits already from the incoming US fire and was lucky previously not to be Suppressed. A Smoke marker is placed on the Tiger as an Opportunity action.
The US player rolls to command all his tanks to move closer to the Tiger, to under half range and his 75s to within Initiative range, and is successful.
Both the Sherman 75s are now at optimum killing range and there is no further action possible, so the US player moves his CO closer and finishes his Game turn.
The Smoke Generated by Tiger as an Opportunity action is still in play, but the Smoke fired at the Tiger back when it was behind the hedge dissipates.

The two remaining Sherman 75mm are now both within Initiative range of the Tiger (but the Firefly is not), but the Tiger is still not a visible target, so the US commander waits and just moves his CO closer. And the Tiger's generated smoke screen is still in place.

It is now the German commanders turn, and he has an option to remain stationary in the smoke or move out of the generated smoke using an Initiative action (as the 75's are within the Tiger's Initiative range).

The German player opts to move as an Initiative action, and the Tiger moves out of the Smoke, leaving it between itself and the Firefly.
Both the remaining Sherman 75mms open fire on the Tiger using their Opportunity fire the moment it emerges from the Smoke. They hit the Tiger but fail to Knock it out or Suppress it (very bad luck).
The Tiger now uses a Command roll and fires at one of the 75mms knocking it out.
It then makes a 2nd Commanded order and shoots at the last 75mm and also knocks that out ("good shooting Hans").
On the 3rd command roll the Tiger moves around the Smoke screen to get a shot at the Firefly (not a good move*).
The moment to Tiger is fully visible the Firefly opens fire, using Opportunity fire, at under half range, and hits and suppresses the Tiger.  The German players game turn ends.
The Smoke generated by the Tiger as an Opportunity action at the start of the US players previous turn, now dissipates.

In the US players next turn, the Firefly is within initiative range, so opens fire again on the Tiger and hits and suppresses it. Over the next 2 successful command orders (despite the -1 for the initiative action to the command roll) the US player shoots at and Knocks out the Tiger.

The Sherman Firefly then moves off to another scenario that involves defending a crossroads against a mass of Green/raw German infantry in a night battle.

(*NB: what the German player could have done is drive back into the smoke cloud and remain hidden from the Firefly, but such is life in the heat of battle).

TBF AJ – maybe if you ran a few of your own scenarios, some of this would start to make more sense to you? Just a thought.   As Norm says, I cannot keep on answering question after question after question ... these are paper based rules, they need to be played and interpreted. For truly definitive game-play answers you are probably much better off with a computer game or simulation.

Cheers

Mark

QuoteThe German player opts to move as an Initiative action, and the Tiger moves out of the Smoke, leaving it between itself and the Firefly.
Both the remaining Sherman 75mms open fire on the Tiger using their Opportunity fire the moment it emerges from the Smoke. They hit the Tiger but fail to Knock it out or Suppress it

I thought that units could only Op Fire when under assault during the initiative phase of the game? Reading the above, they are not being assaulted and so could not have op fired. Am I being thick (distinctly possible ) or am I missing something?

No Steve, Op fire is triggered by any action in line of sight, so firing or movement can trigger it. If it's triggered by firing tgen the firing element goes first, if by movement it may be carried out at any time during the move.

IanS ( to help mark out )

My god Ian.  That's a first - I've written it in my diary - D-day 75th Anniversary; Ian tried to be helpful!

Quote from: sediment on 06 June 2019, 10:29:39 AM
My god Ian.  That's a first - I've written it in my diary - D-day 75th Anniversary; Ian tried to be helpful!

XXX OFF

With just three letters, Ian......You have my permission, as a Moderator, to use the word 'BOG'.

Cheers - Phil

Opportunity Fire appears in the Assault Section - I think that it should read Defensive fire  

QuoteOpportunity fire allows your opponent to open fire with their troops during the command phase of your turn.

This is from the first line on p37. The action of the Tiger mentioned by Mark was an Initiative move, which takes place in the Initiative Phase of the game, not the Command Phase and so is therefore ineligible for Op Fire as outlined above.

QuoteThe Tiger now uses a Command roll and fires at one of the 75mms knocking it out.

This action takes place after the aforementioned Initiative Move, so once the Tiger had fired, then the Shermans could have Op fired.

I hope this is clear?

Alan is correct - it was spotted early on in the Errata Phase (   ) it should read Defensive Fire on page 20, not Opportunity Fire (Inactive Player).
This is logged as an errata.

With regards to Steve J's point. He is correct you cannot use Op Fire in an Initiative phase only Defensive Fire if assaulted.

However, the fact that the Tiger chooses to move as an Initiate action is actually incorrect anyway ... as of course (duh!) ... the Tiger must be able to see the enemy to initiate an Initiative action (3rd paragraph down on page 20) and because it is inside its own Smoke, it cannot see or be seen. I was trying to be too clever  

So ... revised scenario ... the Tiger opts to move out of the Smoke as a Commanded move, out of sight of the Firefly. The two 75's open fire as an Opportunity action, all the shots go wild, the Tiger then blows both of them to pieces in 2 short-range rounds of outstanding shooting and then makes the terrible (schoolboy) error of moving around the Smoke to try and take on the Firefly ... but Brad has his eye in and the rest in cinematic history ...

(Lordy these rulezziz are complicated my precious!)

But hopefully it has answered AJ's question ... ?

To err is human Mark .