I really don't have a dog in this fight, except the one of historicity.

Crocodile - not tough. OK. Whatever. However, the Crocodile should, IMHO be able to ditch the trailer and then serve as a "tough" tank - without a bow MG. The trailer was designed to be jettisoned.

I'd have thought is was just like any "deploy" action in the rules. I think the "too much granularity" argument is a bit thin when there are dozens of special rules now and the bttn/brigade commander gets to orientate the template of his strafing Typhoon support.

An sdkfz7 gets to drop off its 88! 

Quote from: Wulf on 21 May 2019, 07:04:19 PM
I added another video

Excellent.

Dr Dave - the Crocodile is a distinct 'unit' it is very different from an sdkfz7 that gets to drop off its 88.
I do not disagree that the trailer could be ditched - but that was when it had run out of 'juice'.

But it's your call - however the core rule is that the Crocodile is a distinct unit for our purposes and cannot drop its trailer, because it doesn't run out of fuel from the trailer - so why would you want to drop the trailer?
Just to make it Tough by dropping its ability to use it's Flamethrower capability seems a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face IMHO

Mark

Quote from: Big Insect on 23 May 2019, 10:30:08 AM
...I do not disagree that the trailer could be ditched - but that was when it had run out of 'juice'.

...so why would you want to drop the trailer?
Just to make it Tough by dropping its ability to use it's Flamethrower capability seems a bit like cutting your nose off to spite your face IMHO

Well, they'd drop the trailer if they got it snagged crossing rough ground - not simply because they'd run out of juice. But in game terms if you've got a Croc in a tank fight and are being flanked dropping the trailer to regain tough sounds like a good reason to me. I've modelled mine so that I can drop them off.

Interesting approach - as you are going for a defensive approach, rather than on offensive one.

But if that's a house rule you want to play then by all means   

Mark, against jerries with faster tanks and higher cv you can't out manoeuvre them everywhere. Churchills are a terrific asset for the Brits if they refuse one flank and stomp on the other.

I have a separate trailer for mine, not for dropping off, but to add the trailer from 20cm, so initially it could be just another VII. 

Except that almost all VII's were Crocodiles...

I suspect that most German soldiers were not bothered about the mark of tank bearing down on them.

Quote from: fsn on 24 May 2019, 07:25:24 AM
I suspect that most German soldiers were not bothered about the mark of tank bearing down on them.

True, but wargamers are!

Quote from: fsn on 24 May 2019, 07:25:24 AM
I suspect that most German soldiers were not bothered about the mark of tank bearing down on them.

They would be when the shots bounced off !

Quote from: ianrs54 on 24 May 2019, 07:14:51 AM
Except that almost all VII's were Crocodiles...

Eh?? Are you sure? Doesn't sound right to me.

Quote from: fsn on 24 May 2019, 07:25:24 AM
I suspect that most German soldiers were not bothered about the mark of tank bearing down on them.

Is that in the same way that all Allied soldiers thought every German tank was a Tiger, and every gun an 88?

Raider - that is based not the photographic evidence, there are III's IV's and VI's in Cleve, but no VII. Ok that isn't the best, but seems to be correct anecdotally. The reason for II and IV was to improve the AT capabilities of the troops, he 6pdr being better at that than the 75mm. Find any pictures of VII in tank rgt's is very difficult.

IanS

All Mk VIIs had the crocodile fittings added at the factory, even if it wasn't to be used in this role. There were earlier models of crocodile, but thought all crocodiles that hit the beaches from 79th Division were Mk VIIs.

Yeah, I can believe that all Crocodiles are Churchill VIIs. It's all VIIs are Crocodiles I have a problem with (in the same way that all thumbs are fingers, not all fingers are thumbs . . .).

There is a page on the Flames of War website that lists all British tanks in NWE at various points, but I can't locate it at the moment.

I've seen images of Mk VIIs deployed as tanks, not crocodiles. My understanding that they were deployed into Churchill Regts as replacements.

From what I've read in the 9th RTR history (I think it was the 9th?) all of the troop and Sqn HQs had MkVIIs by war's end - so that's a 1 in 3 ratio or thereabouts.

But then there are Regts in Normandy that have their VIIs taken off them for issue as Crocs in the 79th AD.

Quote from: Raider4 on 24 May 2019, 07:46:22 AM
Is that in the same way that all Allied soldiers thought every German tank was a Tiger, and every gun an 88?

Sort of. I can see that Germans who had faced Crocodiles and escaped, would have been very wary of any oncoming Churchill, just in case, but I can't see them debating if the approaching  behemoth is a Mk VII or a Mk IX.