As a new comer to wargaming, ive found that even the most well written set of rules have many problems in them.

I belive this is down to limited playtesting and proofreading of the rules sets.

So i will read through the rules, play the game, mark up any issues and then we (my group) decide the best way forward.

Take care.

Quote from: count_zero99uk on 04 June 2011, 02:43:58 PM
As a new comer to wargaming, ive found that even the most well written set of rules have many problems in them.

I belive this is down to limited playtesting and proofreading of the rules sets.

Bear in mind that every set of rules is a work in progress. As time goes by and the versions increase many of the inconsistencies get corrected - but at the expense of more complication.  Also, the people who write and play-test them don't include all the conventions and "unwritten rules" that help the game along, simply because the rulebook would wind up like a telephone directory. They also assume, incorrectly, that all wargamers use the same conventions.

So, you are on the right track when you say that your group will play the rules and decide the best way forward. A bit of common sense really does go a long way.

Best of luck.

Then there's DBR which takes DBM and converts it over for use in the Rennaissance period.  It fails.

   Rather a sweeping claim. DBR has very serious shortcomings, and of course it pontificates in the classic "In the event of discrepancies, historical reality is at fault" style so dear to WRG, and there are a few mathematical and grammatical atrocities...but after serious editing, it's the most playable pike and shot system I've met. And not just for renaissance; also for 30YW, ECW, French Wars of Religion, Sengoku Japan, Ming Chine, Moghul India....

Quote from: FierceKitty on 05 June 2011, 01:08:58 AM


Then there's DBR which takes DBM and converts it over for use in the Rennaissance period.  It fails.

   Rather a sweeping claim. DBR has very serious shortcomings, and of course it pontificates in the classic "In the event of discrepancies, historical reality is at fault" style so dear to WRG, and there are a few mathematical and grammatical atrocities...but after serious editing, it's the most playable pike and shot system I've met. And not just for renaissance; also for 30YW, ECW, French Wars of Religion, Sengoku Japan, Ming Chine, Moghul India....

Hehe...

But you proved my concise point in your reply!

'DBR has very serious shortcomings...mathematical and grammatical atrocities...[that requires]...serious editing...[to be playable].

I.e. it fails.

  Hehe...

We've long wanted to game the Renassaince Period, but haven't done so for lack of rules we felt worked.  DBR perhaps came the closest, but it still didn't do the job, for all the reasons you point out.

Strangely enough, after abandoning FOG a few years ago (following about 20 trial games), we've recently returned to the RBS fold and are going to use FOGR for a 30 Years War tournament.  I'll let you know how is goes, but while we're painting up the forces, we've gone back into FOG for our ancients armies, to 'get our FOG eye in' as it were.

QuoteFor anyone worried about the dire warnings of DBA's complexity and impenetrability, have a look at this:

That's jolly nice, the language is much easier than "barkeresque",  I really enjoyed DBA1.0 and ran a realy nice ancients campaign for about 3 years using it for battles.  But while Phil Barker is a great gamer and has done a huge amount for the hoby I find his writing style difficult to say the least.

It was a great campaign! (Says the Nubian General)

Well ive the books just need the armys.  And at the moment im saving for a new computer, so it may be a while before i get any movement on this project.

With DBA I'm taking Phil Steele's advice on basing, 20mm deep bases for pike 40mm. wide in a single rank with plenty of scenics built in.

With 10mm figures (I bought the late Romans at the Triples. best 10mm I've seen) a DBA Army cost very little.

Using DBMM 100 (120 Army Points) is about the same size as a DBA Army, take a look at the DBMM yahoo group. There are Army Lists there for 120, 240 and 400 Army Point armies.

DBMM 2 works much better than the earlier version 1, but you need to see a game played or sit down with card bases if you don't have the figures and run through the procedures a few times.

Mike

I've always thought that DBA was a half-way house between chess and wargaming. Admittedly there are no chequers, and you get to choose the capabilities of your "pieces" - to a certain extent, but you get a standard ten elements on a fairly narrow board and a specific move-distance for a given type. Fine for filling in the odd spare hour, but you won't learn much about ancient warfare from it. 

QuoteBear in mind that every set of rules is a work in progress. As time goes by and the versions increase many of the inconsistencies get corrected - but at the expense of more complication.  Also, the people who write and play-test them don't include all the conventions and "unwritten rules" that help the game along, simply because the rulebook would wind up like a telephone directory.

Well said, and totally correct.